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How much should teachers judge?

 
 
gingerbop
19:30 / 04.03.03
Today i got my practical art prelim exam back. My teacher, who is at the moment not my favourite anyway, decribed my sheet that i did in the exam as a pathetic attempt, and basically called it a joke. He said it was crude, the colours were hideous and the drawing was atrocious.
Yet the same teacher has described paintings, one landscape in particular, which really was just blobs (i mean im not abjecting to absractism at all, but this just took it too far) as absolutely brilliant, and one guy asked if we would pass if we did that in the exam, and he said "oh, if only you could".
In my exam, There was very little drawing in it to BE atrocious.I MEANT the colours to be not hideous, but clashing. I liked it, and im not saying its the most amazing thing ever, but i dont really think they can judge us on our ideas and perceptions on things, and if they do, is it really fair to critise them so heavily?

Equaly, in RE a few years ago, we were given sheets with titles such as marriage, sex and drugs, and were told to write our veiws on the topics below them. I wrote out mine- which are clearly different to the teachers, who is a strict christian, and a week later the sheet was returned with "Not enough thought was put into this,Lauren" in red pen. Is it allowable to tell us our views are wrong?
 
 
moriarty
22:06 / 04.03.03
Just out of curiosity, is this post-secondary school, like college or university? If so, and you don't like it, you can always leave.

I'm in a similar position all the time in my course. One day I asked my teacher for his opinion on some character designs I had created for an independent project I'm working on. He liked some, disliked others, made suggestions, and told me that one in particular just would not work at all. That one design was my ringer. It was a design by Ed Benedict, one of the most famed animation character designers of all time. At first I was peeved, because we had been told that we could design our future projects in any style we wanted (this was my way of testing the waters before putting in a whole lot of wasted work. I did not hand in someone else's work as my own homework). Now I just realize that there is a certain sense of design that he's keen on, and to be honest, the type of design that I enjoy might not be what the industry is looking for and he was just trying to save me the trouble.

What it comes down to, for me at least, is taking what they are teaching me that is relevant (and the good greatly outweighs the bad) and applying it to the work I really want to do, as well as learning the industry standards so I can make an actual career out of this. Also, my education takes place outside of the classroom more often than not.

And though it's entirely possible that they are biased towards what you want to do, there's always the chance that your work isn't actually very good or well-thought out.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
22:34 / 04.03.03
Did you have the chance to talk about your ideas in your preparatory work? That often helps - even if your execution isn't up to scratch, they can at least see what you were attempting to do. You'll get marked down if your technique is poor anyway, but not as much as you would if it were poor and you showed no working, I think.

I showed rotten working for my mock A-level and got (rightly) stick for it, but did well in the final exam. Also - I was at odds with my art teacher for a lot of the two years because I resented being told how to do things, but I did all right in the end even though my final piece was a huge series of white canvases with black stripes on...
 
 
lentil
09:06 / 05.03.03
Moriarty just about summed this one up for me:

" Now I just realize that there is a certain sense of design that he's keen on"
"What it comes down to, for me at least, is taking what they are teaching me that is relevant (and the good greatly outweighs the bad) and applying it to the work I really want to do"


The realisation that I came to about halfway through my BA was exactly that described above. Certain tutors liked certain things about my work. By the end of the course I'd got to the point where I could say "Andy Stahl won't like the way I've rendered that character, but Bruce McLean will definitely be into the style", or whatever. Rather than placing tuition in a situation where it becomes useless, this helps arrive at a more balanced view of your work. In the same way as being aware of your own tastes/ prejudices (eg. I was looking around "Days Like These" at the Tate Britain yesterday my favourite thing was undoubtedly the big Paul Noble drawing, but I know that's not because it was necessarily the *best * work there, but because it's a big cartoony drawing of a bizarre virtual world, and that kind of shit gets me going. Good show, btw, and free, check it out Londoners) when viewing the work of others is valuable, being aware of the tastes/prejudices of your audience allows you to filter what they say through that and end up with ideas on how to advance your work according to your own intentions.

Gingerbop, I get the impression from your posts here and in the "art history - what is useful?" thread that you're studying in school at the moment. Apologies if this isn't the case. I do think that it's acceptable, even necessary for examinations at A-Level (if you're outside of the UK these are exams you usually do ages 16-18, the last things before uni for most people) to ask for more demonstration of technical skill than at degree or professional level. (maybe I should also point out here that I'm talking exclusively about fine art cuz that's wot I've dun). For one thing, I'm a believer in the know-the-rules-before-you-break-them line of thinking.

You mention Matisse in the other thread. I remember standing in the Picasso museum looking at a Matisse from his collection with a teacher and saying "but miss, if I handed this in for homework I'd be lucky to get a C", to which she mumbled something indistinct and walked off. What she was probably thinking was "Well yes, if you handed in something that looked like that you would be lucky to get a C, but Matisse draws and paints with a looseness and skill that you could work your whole life towards, and if you could hand in something that had the same compositional balance and vibrancy of colour, a mountain of A-pluses would not do you justice."

I guess I'm biased because I had a wonderful teacher at A-level. Sorry to be so anecdotal but here's another one: Our first A-level project was a 'visual examination' of a fruit. So you chose a fruit and drew/ painted it in various media, whole, sliced, rotting, under a microscope, etc. etc. We were supposed to fill one sketchbook page a week, or something. So one night I was at home trying to do and oil painting of my nectarine and it just wasn't happening. Out of frustration I scraped the whole thing back and began laying on big chunks of solid colour. The result was something unlike anything my young hands had ever produced and I was very pleased with it. The next morning I started to bottle - I really thought this painting would not go down at all well, to the extent that I snuck out of the classroom while the teacher was looking at everyone's work. I came back in to find her holding up that page of my sketchbook and the whole class quiet. Basically she told me that this was exactly the sort of thing she wanted to see and asked, did I really think she was so conservative as to reject it?

My portfolio ended up containing pretty much whatever I liked, with a smattering of "nice", "normal" drawings etc thrown in to appease the examiners. I always felt that my teacher was "on my side", she'd be like, "yeah, I love this stuff but do a neat pencil drawing for the sake of grades as well, I know it's bullshit but what can you do?". It sounds like you haven't been quite as lucky with that part of it.

" but i dont really think they can judge us on our ideas and perceptions on things, and if they do, is it really fair to critise them so heavily?"

In a way, yes. If you carry on practising art you will find that people judge you more and more harshly as you go along, and with less regard for your feelings. And some ideas just aren't very good, and even if they are they can be executed badly. It depends on the quality of the criticism. If your teacher can come up with reasons why your painting is less good than another that has a similar style or set of concerns, you should listen to him.

You haven't got it so bad anyway - if I'd started my degree at the beginning of the 20th century I would have spent my entire first year drawing from classical reproductions. I'd have been lucky to even get to draw from a life model.

Finally, what you say about art history in the other thread (guess whose manager is out of the office): I know exactly how you feel. I hope this doesn't come across as patronising, but up until my second year in uni I had a chip on my shoulder about theory, moaning about how all the lectures were crap and it had nothing to do with my studio work etc etc. This attitude hampered my work for the whole time I held it, and with hindsight I'd probably be a more mature artist now if I'd begun engaging with theory earlier in my life. There must be artists and artworks that you love, right? It doesn't matter who or what - if you think everything since the Renaissance is brutal nonsense or if you think everything before Cubism is irrelevant - if some art is firing you, getting you passionate to make your own stuff, doesn't the idea of trying to get inside the head of the artist, attempting to understand just what it was that allowed them to achieve that quality, excite you? What about investigating why ze made it, the personal/social/historical factors involved, or the reaction when it was first displayed? It's just that when being taught in school, you get the old problem of teaching the canon, a lot of which will not seem relevant because it's not what you're connecting with. Try to apply those techniques to the stuff you really do like.

And it is possible to have your own style while being greatly affected by the work of Matisse.
 
 
Saveloy
11:46 / 05.03.03
gingerbop>

"He said it was crude, the colours were hideous and the drawing was atrocious."

Sounds like my O and A level art teacher on the few occassions that I tried to adopt any style that was both radically different to my usual one and obviously borrowed from a famous source. How long have you had this particular teacher? I mean, how familiar is he with your previous work?


MC Lentil:

"This attitude hampered my work for the whole time I held it, and with hindsight I'd probably be a more mature artist now if I'd begun engaging with theory earlier in my life."

Could you explain what you mean by "a more mature artist", and how you think theory would have helped you become one? I'm not sure I see the link, but that might be because I'm not big on theory myself.
 
 
The Natural Way
12:44 / 05.03.03
I feel for you, Bop. My Secondary art teacher, along with girls, drugs, music, lethargy and just all round being a teenager, really put me off art. And I was good - really good for my age.

Sometimes I want to go back and explain everything to him with a mace.

Not the spray. A real mace.

Or a halberd.
 
 
lentil
13:03 / 05.03.03
Sav: It's tricky, because there are a lot of interlinked issues. It may be that I've homed in on theory as a symbol of the changes in my attitude that have taken place. Basically I'd say that my wilful rejection of the theoretical side of my studies actually stopped me from engaging with art in general on a personal level, "No I'm not going to see that show because it'll just be a load of conceptual wank trying to comment on other conceptual wank". I guess my problem was that I saw theory as being a view of art that you had to buy into. It was only when I started unravelling it that i realised it was just a set of tools that you could choose to use or not use when trying to work out your own reaction to a piece. So perhaps if you, or Gingerbop or anyone else has already worked that out, the link will be irrelevant to you, as you're not starting from the pigheaded refusenik position that I did.

Also, I'm not that big on theory. I don't read Art Review or anything.
 
 
netbanshee
13:05 / 05.03.03
moriarty said...

"Also, my education takes place outside of the classroom more often than not."

I'd have to say that this is where most of the development you will find as an artist will have to happen. While I was in school, part of the group I belonged to (a few interactive designers in a non-interactive thinking program) had to fight twice as hard to get noticed as well as get a "real" critique when it came to certain aspects of our projects. And not all of us faired to well either. Butting up against the classic stances of faculty there proved difficult, even if any of us could explain why there was mutual link between our thinking and in fact why the work that we did was sometimes more effective and beautiful. That's why we would leave class (sometimes early) to go create more. By the end of the year, a few of us hijacked spots that the popular graphic artists had obtained...all due to hard work.

So...don't try to be defeated too much by the critique of another. Take some of the things they tell you with you and engage them in an open discussion. I've had plenty of teachers who didn't get my work, but they certainly got me.
 
 
lentil
13:12 / 05.03.03
sorry, I only answered half your question. By 'mature' I meant open to possible interpretations of your work and having an awareness of how it fits into other things that are going on at the time/ have gone on in the past. Context.

Like my assessment at the end of my first year, when tutors were saying "well a lot of people are going to read it like [x]", I'd be "Well that's just invalid, it's intended like [y]", but not realise that x was a likely and valid reading. Horrendous oversimplified example: Say if I were to do a painting of someone looking with rapt joy through a window in the shape of a Christian cross, through which light was streaming. Then make the ridiculous assumption that I've managed to live my life thus far without a knowledge of any Christian iconography. Then imagine how silly I look when I get angry about people misinterpreting my painting as being something to do with a specifically Christian revelation, and how a litte research could have saved me a lot of time and embarrassment.
 
 
rizla mission
14:38 / 05.03.03
This thread reminds my of an anecdote my school art teacher told about how he went to visit the head O-Level art examiner for Wales in 19XX and found him in his office with a bottle of gin and a pile of paintings, looking at each one for a few seconds and then throwing them into different parts of the room marked A, B, C, D etc.

Nice image.
 
 
gingerbop
21:33 / 05.03.03
That last message- that SOOO is my art teacher... he doesnt just drink one or two bottles a year to make up a still life- we're talkin about 100 empties in the art dept of only 2 teachers.

I had him for about a year and a half but that was about 4 years ago so hes not familiar with my stuff. But other than me just thinkin hes an arse for what he said, which may well be true, he lost my essay which i didnt find out about untill the nite b4 the exam in which i had 2 reproduce it. Then he gave me the wrong paper for the prelim exam, which he should hav known otherwise had he read my essay. Then i said "will it count towards an appeal if i need it" and he said "im not sure,you'll just have to do well in your real exam." I mean, that is pretty poor. Ok, he has now sorted it all out but it took my parents to write two letters to the rector to get to that stage.
And yeah,im 16 and still at school, not uni. However, i only have 6 more weeks of the hole of hell which is fortrose academy. Then edinburgh, and beyond

However still more pissed about the R.E. teacher sayin my view were rubbish coz i said we should legalise cannabis and that gay marriage should be allowed and have equal rights to hetro marriages. Not enough thought apparently. Bastard.
 
 
lentil
23:38 / 05.03.03
god, he does sound awful. I don't know what to say about the RE thing - it sounds as if your teacher has dismissed your views because of his disagreement with them rather than the strength or weakness of your argument, which is just shit. Is it a church school?
 
 
gingerbop
21:39 / 06.03.03
church school, lol, me and church dont go well 2gether. Its just plain old comprehensive stylie school. Just happens to be full of eejits. I think we should teach the teachers.
 
  
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