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Dress codes at work

Dances with Gophers

10:50 / 24.02.03

Saw this earlier and as a person who avoids ties where possible this has made my day!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2791943.stm

10:56 / 24.02.03

I don't think I'd take a job where I was forced to wear a tie unless I was really desperate. Been there, done that, fucking hated it.

11:28 / 24.02.03

My concern is that the applicant brings his case as a sex discrimination case. There is a lot of case law on dress code and there is nothing I have seen in this brief report to suggest that this case is anything special. In discrimination cases you have to show less favourable treatment not just different treatment - a difference in the way a dress code affects male and female members of staff does not necessarily point to the detriment required to be made out by law. Having myself seen countless examples of glass ceilings, unequal pay, sexual harrassment etc etc always, and I mean always, operating to the detriment of women I feel that this is a pile of shit and a complete waste of public money given the Benefit Agency will be footing a sizable legal bill.

But I agree that it's interesting. On a completely different note, and something I have just pulled out of my arse, looking at the photo of Mr Thompson and seeing his quoted remarks he squarely fits the profile of "whining pain in the arse" litigant.

Just my 0.02c charged out at £350 per hour.

11:28 / 24.02.03

Interesting issue. I wear a suit and tie at work because a) it's expected of me, and b) I like to look as cool as fuck at all times. But standards do tend to be different for female workers - they are allowed to adopt a much more casual look. I think if I had the choice I'd still wear the whistle, though... it gets me in the "work" mindset and I wouldn't feel right in anything else after 15 years of work.

14:27 / 24.02.03

Yeah, why should women get to wear whatever they want?

They can wear spangly tops and high heels but when I do it, suddenly I'm the weirdo...

Seriously though, he has a point. If what he says about the women wearing logo'd t-shirts and at least one football jersey is true, that's clearly a double-standard.

He should face the sack for not wearing a tie when the lay-deez get to wear Man United shirts.

Our Lady of The Two Towers

15:26 / 24.02.03

< looks in mirror > Bwahahaha!

Ahem. HIR, your point is an interesting one, but there is a disparity here. If not 'sex discrimination' then what legislation should the guy use to press his case?

16:04 / 24.02.03

The sex discrimination legislation is the correct avenue. I suppose the point I was hinting at but expressing poorly is that while the legislation is there for all, my experience and expectations of the legislation is that it generally a tool for women to seek parity. I actually have come across significant discrimination which has had a profound affect on the victims - this just seems rather petty in comparison. I tread carefully as I say this, recalling that you have had clothing issues raised at work Flowers.

My other related point is that while there may be a disparity of treatment, not all disparities amount to a detriment. Unequal pay, difference in career progression, inappropriate sexual conduct etc are clearly detrimental, I'm not sure that this disparity clearly is detrimental to men. I'd be very interested to see what the employers have to say on the issues - I find the thumbnail sketch of the applicant's case unconvincing, and I imagine that the empoyer's evidence may well put the seemingly straightforward disparity of women wearing football shirts into a slightly different though less interesting context.

Sorry, I'm posting this in a bit of a rush. Will have more of a think and will try and follow this case.

Dances with Gophers

08:16 / 25.02.03

My original posting was done in a bit of a rush as I had to be somewhere else. I put it conversation rather than switchboard because I thought it was a wee bit trivial. In a way it was as H.I.R pointed out when compared to other discrimination cases. It also, I feel, is Important to people like Flowers who have had problems with clothing at work, which is one of the reasons I posted it.

One point I'd like to put is that discrimination breeds discrimination and even something petty can start up a viscious circle. Although I have to agree that it will probably waste a lot of public money. Interesting to note that the BBC news last night (or at least the bits I saw) ignored the discrimination side of the arguement.

Do people think it will strengthen cause for equality or weaken it?

As far as ties are concerned I rarely wear one in the office except when meeting clients (and occasionally to mess with colleagues heads!)
Thing that gets me is that we are not allowed to wear anything around our necks that won't break when pulled (they with drew a batch of new pass lanyards) but ties are exempt.

The replies to this thread have been thought provoking. I also intended to put something about work persona in the abstract to tie in with Ganesh's thread from last week....I forgot.

08:52 / 25.02.03

It is an interesting subject, and I'm sorry DwG if my responses seemed dismissive of the subject. They weren't meant to be - it was the comparison of the tie issue as discriminatory to men with the rather more prevalent forms of discrimination which I feel are more serious that led me to say that this issue is a pile of shit. I should have made it clear that I view Mr Thompson's case as shit - the issues are interesting. I also did not mention that reading about the case invoked a bit of jaded cynicism in me based on some rather tiresome past experiences which I will not go into.

I suppose one point to make is that sex discrimination discrimination is gender neutral in the way it is framed, much the same way as race discrimination legislation is race neutral. It provides for the situation where men discriminate against women, women against men, and even discriminating against ones own sex. In practice, however, the overwhelming majority of cases are brought by women claiming to have been discriminated against by men. I think that reflects the reality in the workplace.

Dances with Gophers

09:10 / 25.02.03

I didn't think your comments were dismissive at all and I'm sorry if I implied that. To be perfectly honest I'm wondering if to Mr Thompson it is a point of principle or a money spinner.

09:19 / 25.02.03

I can't imagine that this could conceivably be much of a money-spinner even if successful. I'm guessing that it's the principle.