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Metaphysics of magic?

 
 
iconoplast
15:22 / 22.02.03
So, I've had cause to think, a lot, about the nature of self, and its relation to the universe, and similar topics lately. Sort of investigating the shape of my beliefs and trying to put some of them into practice - daily meditation and contact with the divine, for instance.

And I'm wondering about Magic. Because I know an awful lot about Magic, compared to other things about which I have no belief/doubt-esque issues - plumbing, f'rinstance. And so... you guys are smart, you're curious, I'm sure some among you have theories about this.

Assuming that Magic works, how does it do so? Why? In what sense? Is it a purely psychological tool designed to circumvent cognitive blocks? Is it evocation of the hidden masters of reality? I'm quite earnest about this - I'm trying to figure out where all this esoterica fits into my personality and belief system. Any help whatsoever is much appreciated.
 
 
Seraphim
17:17 / 22.02.03
I think that whatever explanation works, is fine. Some more or less limiting, and more or less useful, but the primary magical engine is belief. Initially, for a person of the "modern" western world, it might seem more convenient to explain and understand the workings of magic through means of psychology, or pseudo-psychology. For someone who feels very close to nature, Wiccan philosophy might be the way to go. Urban style shamanism (spiritism) and chaos magic, might also be interesting, as most of us live in cities of some kind.

But I really think the key is starting out. Finding out that magic works, for yourself, not through endless persuading from occult litterature or "hard-core" friends. That makes it easier to start to flesh out the how's and why's, and a hellovalot more effective than just buying into a system and sticking to it, for the systems sake.

Somehow, as magic is very unscientific (as its hard to prove, using standard scientific methods), discussing it is fine, but experiencing it, is the best way to find out.

Start out, by looking closely at what you, currently, can accept as a possible magical reality, and start doing it. As time goes by, you'll probably change your style and (subjective) understanding alot, but at least, you'll have first hand knowledge of what works, for you.

Personally, I've gone from a very sceptic psychological view, to a more Jungian approach, to a much more open chaos magic-influenced line of thinking. And it keeps working better.

- §eraphim, more general points, than on topic..
 
 
Seth
10:05 / 23.02.03
The best-fit definition of magic I can think of is apparent acausal change. This is mutually exclusive to the concept of proof. It's not a perfect definition, of course.
 
 
Rev. Wright
20:13 / 23.02.03
Assuming that Magic works, how does it do so? Why? In what sense?....

During a mushroom and red wine circle working my accomplice and I were tossing around the idea that 'it' (for context, the communication with spirit commonly called 'mediumship') was a telepathic reading of peoples 'other than' conscious minds. I then introduced the non-associated readings (not of other humans/material entities)and we spiralled off on extra-dimensional beings and the little acknowledged multi-dimensional aspect of our nervous system and how we are not closed circuits.....
 
 
Tamayyurt
04:07 / 24.02.03
Instead of telling you that "Any way you think it works is fine", I'm going to tell you how I've chosen to believe it works.

First let me just say that I grew up with my grandfather (of 90+) for 9 years of my life and I never new him because he was trapped in his in own mind. He had Alzheimer's. He would sometimes mumble conversations with long dead people but he was always in the past. That said... magick and how it works... I think it is psychological but I also believe I'm already 94-years-old, completely out of my mind and reliving my life in detail so exact that I can't tell the difference. Except, heh, that I know it's all in my head. Because I'm a magician I know it's just an old record. So, I can make changes to the old record, scratch it up, remix it, get things right this time around. In the end I'm already in my death bed and this is all some sort of elaborate nostalgia... might as well remember it how I please!
 
 
illmatic
07:36 / 24.02.03
Interesting question but one I don't think I can answer, I'm afraid. I just don't know how it works, it just does. Fucking weird, eh? I kind of accept it as a great mystery that I'm probably not going to get that much closer to in the 40 or so years I've got left to me.

I was thinking about the I Ching and how this might work, contrasting psychological and spiritual models - for me to believe it's "really" my sub-concious at work I have to believe that a) my sub-concious "knows" in some sense the I Ching's symbol system completely, so it can pick the right set of symbol b) it has the ability to manipulate the fall of dice or coins (telekinesis) to bring up said ymbol. All this seems patently absurd, so for the sake of Occam's Razor and all that, I find it easier to believe that it's a set of 5000 year old Chinese spirits. Who knows?

Don't know if you've seen Pete Caroll's stuff at all? In Liber Kaos he tries to explain magick through some rather outre quantum physics. Not qualified to assess how good his work is though. i do find it interesting how bugfuck weird quantum stuff is though, but I'm wary of using quantum stuff to explain all these phenomona - I don't know enough about it, and i supect that half the new agey mystical types who bang on about it don't know much about it either. It's a big jump from the quantum level to our world and conciousness after all.
 
 
Quantum
09:39 / 24.02.03
I know quite a lot about Quantum stuff : ) Interestingly, the principal discoveries that are so *new* and exciting boil down to the same old things magic has said since forever- the interconnectedness of all things and the importance of consciousness. Non-locality, acausal connecting principles, observer dependant phenomena, wave/particle duality etc. none of it is new. I recently read an excellent book (here) that illustrates how the rise of a literalist, rationalist mindset did not destroy the Daimons (in the Platonic sense, spirits to you and me) it simply pushes them into new forms. Wherever the boundary of knowledge is (Herme's domain is boundaries isn't it?) that's where they are found, because they are creatures of mystery, inherently ambivalent (like a photon). IMHO Quantum physics is one of the magical paradigms of today, just technomagical, so is insufficient to explain how other magical paradigms work. Are you looking for a metaparadigm?
What sort of answer are you looking for? to echo Reflect, Magic is unprovable in terms of science, or common sense. Like miracles magic spells seem to defy natural laws (e.g. gravity). Personally I use magic to explain other phenomenon.
How does it work for me? I believe the world to be only ideas, sense data, perceptions, call it what you will. I *know* I am experiencing something so I cannot doubt that. The physical world that I believe in day-to-day is less certain, it is an inference from my experiences. I construct the reality I perceive, and I think everybody does. The rules that the world follows are likewise of my own human construction- it would be arrogant to think that what we believe in the west at the beginning of the 21st century is objectively true. (Wait five hundred years and then see what's still 'true') 'Natural Laws' are human concepts, organisational categories and explanations Invented by People and are thus Psychological laws, ways that we think about the world, not ways that the world *is*.
Magic is as real as Science or Religion, and likewise best understood on it's own terms- principles of Sympathy and Contagion, Naming, etc.
To take a specific example, the Tarot. I think it acts as a psychological mirror, showing the querent things they do not know they know. But that doesn't explain the synchronicities, the way specific cards crop up all the time in specific circumstances, the sense of humour the cards display, the way a reader can know these things about the querent (I once read a stranger's cards, he was silent throughout and the reading didn't make much sense. When I finished, disheartened and thinking I'd been talking nonsense, he told me he was an amnesiac and the reading was so spookily accurate he had been stunned into silence- suddenly it made a lot more sense) How does it work? Magic.
I totally agree with what's been said so far, esp. Illmatic- "it just does" sums it up.
 
 
Skeleton Camera
03:38 / 11.09.04
*bump*

This seems an appropriate thread to post this, rather than starting a brand new one. I'm in several classes this semester that have opened up to magic or magic-related discussion. Here is a brief email I sent to the Performance Art professor, discussing ritual:

"“Ritual” and “magic” are heavily weighted words. In the occult traditions magic is “the art and science of causing change to occur in conformity with will.” (The Aleister Crowley long definition) Ritual, per this definition, is the action (usually a repetitive set of actions) taken to focus will and cause change.
This applies to everything from Catholic Mass (where the will is to change wine and wafer into Blood and Body) to Crowley’s “ritual magick” (all number of outcomes) to the brushing, dressing and eating we do before heading to work. It’s a good definition.
In my understanding, though, we must expand the definition of magic – and thus ritual. Magic is a participation in reality primarily using metaphor. What this in turns means is that there are many ways of participating in reality – and we engage many of them every day. We move through physical reality; we think in imagination space; we create definitions – temporary meanings – as we encounter others. And these are just a few, basic examples. “Magic” means more subtle levels of interaction, both WITHIN and BEYOND these levels.
This is usually done through metaphor. We create a piece of art to bring an idea into physical being. This is a translation of the idea, the creation of a metaphor for something that does not exist physically. Then, in turn, depending on how it comes out physically, the metaphor changes…and so does the idea.
Translation works through ritual. A ritual action is one that ‘contains’ the process of change. In a spiritual context, as with the above Catholic Mass, the ritual is performed in order to change the wine and wafer. But does this LITERALLY happen? Not even the most ardent Catholic sees the MATERIAL in front of them transform itself. The METAPHOR, what the material MEANS, changes. The wine no longer means “wine,” it means “Blood of Christ.” The Catholic then experiences the Blood, not the wine.
Ritual is the process of changing meaning. I originally brought it up in relation to “being in the moment.” A ritual process is one that brings you out of the mental chitter-chatter into the Present, into what you are actually processing (seeing, hearing, thinking, etc) right then and there."


I kept it 'secular' for the sake of the class discussion and that secularity forces the discussion into new territory. The involvement of metaphor in magic, even so far as the nature of magic itself, is intrisic to the discussion of fictionspace/imagination space and the interaction with various figures or entities therein.

I don't see metaphor as something deceitful or in some way illusory; rather, as I hope the above indicated, metaphor is a component of reality itself, reality being a multilayered and flexible structure. Metaphor is the process of translation between two layers, and in being such becomes another layer itself.

Deleuze, Guattari (sp?), and emergence theory are making the meme-rounds right about now and they've had a big effect on this train of thought. To embrace the metaphorical-magical dimension is to embrace change - what D/G termed "Becoming" - because you are literally placing yourself in the spacetime dimension of the translation process.

(Making sense?)

A metaphor is not static. Hermes, who is a vital part of my life at the moment, is a "metaphor" - and I say that with no condescention, deprecation, or disrespect. He is an entity, as alive and present as I am or you are. But he is also a translation of something much broader than my perspective on him.
 
 
Boy in a Suitcase
23:57 / 12.09.04
Time manipulation...
 
 
Shahaoul
22:47 / 13.09.04
I have my own theories on how magick works, but perhaps it doesn't really matter how it works. Uncertainty breeds flexibility. Without defined boundaries there can be no limits. That's the great thing about magick.

Personally, i do subscribe to the quantum explainations for magick, but i don't think that they adequately explain the process. i mean the behaviour of the subatomic realm may well have exposed science to a world that doesn't respond to 'rules' of time, distance, causality as we know it, but i don't know many who would say that these theories are operable at our state of existence.
 
 
SMS
03:27 / 17.09.04
The best-fit definition of magic I can think of is apparent acausal change. This is mutually exclusive to the concept of proof. It's not a perfect definition, of course.
I respectfully disagree. It sounds like a perfect definition to me. And I think the most obvious metaphysical consequence of magic is the possibility of metaphysics as a real method of inquiry, because no other method of inquiry could lead us to the discovery of an acausal power.
 
  
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