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Learning Frontpage

Our Lady of The Two Towers

14:26 / 21.02.03

As a first step in trying to improve my IT skills I'm considering taking a Learn Direct course in Web Publishing, the only possible downside being the only package they teach you on is Microsoft Frontpage.

So, has anyone else used Frontpage for doing webpages? Is it your average 'if you like Word and Excel then you'll probably think this package is okay' Microsoft thing? Is Frontpage radically different to other publishing packages? WHAT other packages are there and would a web-novice like me really be better off trying to use something else instead?

And secondly, it seems that all IT learning in the UK is almost entirely based on Microsoft products (Learn Direct, ECDL) how fucked is that?

14:44 / 21.02.03

WHAT other packages are there and would a web-novice like me really be better off trying to use something else instead?

There's a couple other packages out there, but the only one I've had any experience with is Adobe Pagemaker. It's a simple point, click, drag and drop thing. Once you figure out where all the controls are and what they all do, you can churn out a basic webpage within an hour or less.

I have no experience with Frontpage, but I've heard that it's not too hard to use.

Of course, if you want to really impress people, you could just work with raw html. Just you and notepad.

14:56 / 21.02.03

The only web-based stuff I've done so far has all been Frontpage. I was advised against it, but stuck with my decision through sheer bloody-mindedness.

It's pretty easy to use. I taught myself and only came up against one brick wall which I needed help breaking down - it plays silly buggers if you try to display database results on pages (the method of linking to them is hidden away in a tangle of menu options, and it asks you to do some weird things to your SQL). Other than that, haven't had any major headaches with it.

Everyone else I know has used Dreamweaver UltraDev. I avoided it purely because of the unfamiliar interface, but they all managed to produce decent results after a couple of weeks practice. The difference between the two, as explained to me, is that Frontpage generates much more HTML than is actually necessary.

15:18 / 21.02.03

Most interfaces will create more HTML than is strictly necessary. I find them useful for code checking and formatting, more than anything else.

Dreamweaver is quite easy to use, and provides a set of tutorials that'll take you a couple of hours, tops, to go through. After that you'll have to hit the help file now and again, but their documentation is decent, so that usually works out OK.

Adobe also make GoLive which I haven't used, but obviously uses the familiar Adobe interface, which is nice. I'd go with that over PageMaker or FrontPage (which I've always avoided), but would use Dreamweaver and the whole MAcromeida package over any of those, mostly because of the native integration of Flash and the extreme ease of Fireworks, which can churn out all your .gifs and whatnot one you get the hang of it.

And needless to say, the full versions of all these are easily available to any intrepid user of the internet.

15:41 / 21.02.03

I don't like Frontpage. It has the habit of generating a really large amount of unwanted code, even more than other packages, and it also has the habit of creating bad code.

In general I don't like WYSIWIG HTML editors at all, but if you're going to go for one, I agree that you should go straight for Dreamweaver and not bother with Frontpage. Bear in mind that, if you're going for any web design work afterwards, Frontpage is not a CV plus. Dreamweaver is the package they want. I must also emphasise that you really must learn HTML if you're serious, or even if you're not, because knowing how your pages work will get you out of holes which a graphical editor sticks you in. HTML's a piece of piss anyway.

As for the fact that govt courses are MS-based... yes, it is shit and sucks etc. Public-private partnership at its finest. MS are amazingly keen to get people trained on their products, particularly kids, what's the cost of a few thousand licences vs getting future users and designers who only know their stuff?

The Return Of Rothkoid

23:37 / 21.02.03

My advice? Fuck MS. In terms of coding, it's a really dodgy-arse solution.

What you may like to try - and it's what I use when I code - is First Page 2000. It's free, and is available from Evrsoft. It's well worth it - offers the usual code/preview panes, comes with a full HTML reference, and I think even comes with lessons on how to learn HTML. There's varying levels of interface (from "help! I don't know a thing!" to "1 0WNZ J00!") and it's generally pretty good. I'm not too up on Dreamweaver, but think that if you can get your head around the code *behind* the page, you'll have little trouble understanding what's basically a glorified page-layout prog at a later date.

Easiest way to learn HTML? Borrow one of those "Teach Yourself HTML" books (the one in the series that teaches a whole stack of languages, etc) and read it, following what it says. It's really simple, as long as you learn the basic rules, and from then you can go into CSS and stuff. Honestly. Fuck, I taught myself with the aid of that book and by using the "view source" bit of my web browser - looking and seeing how people do it it the most helpful thing...

PM me if you want a couple more pointers?

23:41 / 21.02.03

Yeah, PM me too, if you ever want any (D)HTML advice. I'm a typical geek show-off and would love the chance to help.

04:02 / 22.02.03

Seconding the 'view source' advice. While looking at an apparently simple page like on from 'lith won't do a lot of good if you don't know the whole idea behind CSS, you can very quickly learn what's going on by looking at the source for a few dozen pages. Take some of it, cut and paste into a text file or editor and start tweaking. In that case, the editor can bee a good tool as it will highlight fixes for the mistakes you'll inevitably make, and will give you a good knowledge of page formatting - somthing a lot of page coders disregard.

Our Lady of The Two Towers

08:42 / 22.02.03

Thanks for all the advice, on the grounds that it's free I'm going to go for this LearnDirect option and hope that gives me enough of a grouding in the basics to then transfer to some package that isn't the essence of pure David-Warner-in-Time-Bandits style evil.

So, feel free to spend the rest of this thread slagging of Microsoft, Alias or Terry Pratchett.