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The Clash...The Grammys...Bruce and Elvis...

 
 
beatorbebeat
02:58 / 21.02.03
This keeps getting advertised...Springsteen and Costello are doing the CLash tribute at the Grammys. Seeing as the Clash aren't an American band and the state of affairs in the world don't seem to lend themselves to a tribute to the Clash on American soil.
A) Shouldn't the Brit Awards be a place to hold the Clash tribute?
B) Would Joe Strummer allow this to go on?
C) Shoe in for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
03:38 / 21.02.03
B) Would Joe Strummer allow this to go on?

Yes, because Joe wasn't a dick. And it obviously would never be up to him anyway. And I think that he probably would be flattered. Costello and Springsteen are obviously major talents from Joe Strummer's generation, I don't see the problem, at least in the context of the Grammy's.

Seeing as the Clash aren't an American band and the state of affairs in the world don't seem to lend themselves to a tribute to the Clash on American soil.

What in hell are you talking about? Since when do UK bands have to be honored only in the UK? What sort of logic is that?

No matter what you think of the Clash, you have to remember that to the mainsteam of the culture, they are basically a classic rock band now. They have a bunch of old hits which you can hear in ads on tv. They're no different from Costello or Springsteen, for the most part.
 
 
beatorbebeat
04:47 / 21.02.03
I'm just saying that The CLash are a preeminent band of the U.K..."I'm So Bored With The USA" and Joe's vehement statements of the US govt. policies in South & Central America and the fact that it seems so smarmy for a band of the Clashes calibre be boiled down to fake American TV tributes...It just kinda leaves a bad taste is all.

Yes, as far as the CLash goes,yeah they sold Levis, but couldn't we just leave 'em to rest in the glory. They put out fantastic records and not parade them like Black Sabbath or Jimmy Page and the likes. Pieces of my youth are being coopted for tributes, selling Coke and such. How about music for music and not for advert time and Dorito units sold.
 
 
A
05:05 / 21.02.03
It's worth keeping in mind that this is a tribute to the Clash, not the tribute to the Clash. This doesn't preclude anyone else from doing a Clash tribute. Anyway, as far as a Clash tribute at something as awful and soulless as the Grammys goes, Springsteen and Costello do seem to be a surprisingly appropriate choice. Just think of some of the performers it could have been- Good Charlotte, Matchbox 20, Limp Bizkit... I'm sure we can all think of several dozen awful possibilities.

From what I can gather, Strummer really did want the Clash to become huge rock stars, and he seems to have even been concerned about industry-type acknowledgement of the Clash. I remember reading that he had said that a Clash reunion would only ever happen for an important event, such as being inducted into the Rock'n'Roll Hall Of Fame. So, I believe he probably would have approved of the Clash recieving a tribute at the Grammies (at least a seemingly tasteful one like this seems to be).

I'm sure that the Clash are indeed a shoo-in for the Rock'n'Roll Hall of Fame. Something of interest will be to see who the remaining members choose to perform at the induction. When it was announced that the Ramones would be inducted in to the Hall of Fame, there was quite a bit of speculation about who would perform, and it was feared by many that the remaining members (this was before Dee Dee's death) would perform with Eddie Vedder singing. Fortunately (in my opinion, anyway), they got Green Day to perform some Ramones songs instead.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:13 / 21.02.03
Of course the Clash should only receive tributes in the UK - don't you remember their classic punk anthems like 'I'm So Happy With The British Government', 'UK Foreign Policy Is So Great' and 'English and Proud'?

Or maybe I'm thinking of The Jam.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
16:12 / 21.02.03
Well, gosh.

First, I think it should be noted that Joe Strummer was not a man who hated Americans. In fact, if you've read some interviews or have seen the Westway To The World documentary, Joe clearly had a lot of love for America and quite enjoyed coming to the States to play. He was not nearly as simplistic as Beatorbebeat is making him out to be - he, like most sane people, realize that the problems that he has with America were not necessarily to do with average Americans, but with the government. There's a huge difference.

Second, The Clash were definitely not ashamed of the fact that they had hit records and hit singles. They voluntarily played stadiums at the end of their career. They liked being a big popular rock band, and I don't blame them. They did it all on their terms, and definitely paved the way for lots of more serious Big Rock Bands like R.E.M., U2, Radiohead, etc.

Third, if you check interviews later in his career, Strummer clearly had no major issue with his band being canonized, and was certainly quite flattered and happy with his place in pop culture.

You know, even if they seem lame, there's really nothing terribly bad about industry awards and accolades. There's nothing wrong with them being on tv. It's really not a big deal. I like the Clash, and I think it's cool that they'll get this kind of tribute on tv for a lot of people who aren't very aware of them. It'll probably get some people to go out and buy a Clash record. That's great.

But you know me, I'm one of those crazy people who wishes that everybody liked the stuff that I like.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
16:16 / 21.02.03
Re: Clash reunion at the Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame

I imagine that Topper, Paul, and Mick will get together and play as a trio, or getting one of the guys who replaced Mick at the end to fill in on second guitar. They could do "Should I Stay Or Should I Go", "Train In Vain", "Complete Control" and "Guns Of Brixton", and it'd be fine.
 
 
Baz Auckland
02:44 / 24.02.03
That wasn't so bad... although the 4 of them taking turns one line after each other didn't sound very good. They could have just done one verse each or something.

Even if it didn't sound the best, it rocked because they (especially Springsteen) really looked like they were rockin' out.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
02:57 / 24.02.03
I thought it was great, but I could've gone without Bruce's pained yowling. Grohl and Costello sounded great singing the song, and it was pretty rocking and exciting. Thumbs up, and tastefully executed.
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
12:32 / 24.02.03
Of course Joe would approve, after all, he did once say something along the lines of "if you don't like Springsteen, you don't like rock and roll" ... so there you go.
 
 
beatorbebeat
13:55 / 24.02.03
I was pretty happy with the version, snarling rock and roll and all. They didn't do too bad of a job. Weird seeing all those suits (Tony Bennett giving a standing ovation!?! how cool is that!) clapping away...
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
14:00 / 24.02.03
Why wouldn't they clap? It's a famous song being played by a one-time-only supergroup of very famous men, and it was in honor of a guy who died. Of course they'd all clap.
 
 
A
05:34 / 25.02.03
I thought they did quite a fine job. I'm not quite sure why that guy from the E-Street band(?) was there. Maybe Springsteen said "Yeah, I'll do it, but only if my pal can too", or something.

I noticed that the bassist was the guy from No Doubt, but I didn't get a clear look at the drummer. Did anyone spot who it was?
 
 
beatorbebeat
12:43 / 25.02.03
Listen, Flux. Sure they clap because they're sheep and sheep do what other sheep do. Do you suppose that most of those people there really gives a crap if Joe Strummer died? Tony Bennnet really knows Joe well and is doing an album of Strummer Standards? NO! Not to take anything away from the band playing "London Calling", but really, get a grip, these awards shows are simply conventions of conformity; Where as to me, the CLash exemplified the idea of individuality...
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
12:57 / 25.02.03
Little Steven Van Zandt definitely had every right to be up there, and his position in the E Street Band is only half of it. Little Steven's been involved in hundreds of recordings as a solo act, sideman and producer, and has been a champion of independent garage/punk bands for years. He hosts a syndicated radio program where he plays garage rock music new and old, and it is one of the few places on the radio dial where a lot of this music is still getting airplay. He's done a great deal of charity work and was the head of the Sun City project in the 80s.

In addition to all that, he plays Silvio on the Sopranos!

The bass player was indeed Tony Kanal, and the drummer was Elvis Costello's drummer Pete Thomas.
 
 
Jack Fear
13:03 / 25.02.03
Sure they clap because they're sheep and sheep do what other sheep do.

And you sneer reflexively because you're an individualist, and that's what individualists do, when confronted by those they've dismissed as "sheep."

Irony-meter off the fucking scale, man.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
14:23 / 25.02.03
Aw, what do you know, Jack? You're a sheep too.

Don't trust anyone over 30!
 
 
grant
14:25 / 25.02.03
Is here where one mentions that Springsteen is a protest singer? And Costello and Strummer were co-stars in at least one movie, and they kinda hung out - both coming out of the pub rock scene into the punk rock scene?
Both of 'em had a thing for American rock & roll, as evidenced by that link, as well as the name (Elvis) and the record cover (London Calling).
 
 
beatorbebeat
14:56 / 25.02.03
Baa, Baa...good point, i'm a sheep. But the likes of Christina Arugala and the likes irks me when it comes to legends as the CLash. Paying your dues in the music business as they say is no longer a viable right of passage, not when music is written by 40 year old men to appeal to kids who don't understand that they are being bought and sold. They never realise that the next big thing will be brought to them by Coke or Pepsi or whatever. I feel that the Clash holds distinction over a ton of these Grammy "winners" in the fact that they are part of culture as opposed to the pop crap that pollutes the airwaves these days. When it comes down to the all mighty buck and not about the experience of the music, it seems a little shallow.
 
 
beatorbebeat
14:58 / 25.02.03
Flux is absolutely right about Little Steven.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:12 / 25.02.03
Oh brother.

Listen, Beatorbebeat, everything that any of us can say to counter your very dubious views on the record industry has already been covered in a lot of other threads here, particularly in this one.
 
 
Jack Fear
15:25 / 25.02.03
"These kids today and their manufactured music... why in my day we paid our dues... this pop crap that pollutes our airwaves..."

God, and people say I'm a cranky old man.

Listen carefully, Beat, cos I'm only gonna say this once: 'Twere ever thus.

From its very beginnings, popular music has been imaged and manufactured, from Tin Pan Alley to the Brill Building to Nashville's Music Row, from the Snake Pit at Motown Studios to Muscle Shoals to Electric Ladyland, from Irving Berlin to Hoagy Carmichael to Joe Meek to Phil Spector to Brian Epstein to Berry Gordy to Mutt Lange to the Neptunes. Professional songwriters crafting songs for studio musicians to play and pretty singers to sell.

That's the system within which the Clash worked, and they knew it from Day One. They were as market-driven as any other band—maybe moreso, since their sales appeal rested largely on their relevance, and the notion of "relevance" is far more fickle than simple "fashion"—and so the Clash (and their label) had to work harder to get their marketing message out. And they succeeded, in spades—being known as "the Only Band That Matters" is, if nothing else, a triumph of salesmanship.

This system provided the Clash a livelihood. It's not a prison, it's a tool: the professionalist mdel, rather than stultifying creativity, provides the foundation of craft on which inspiration is supported. It is a system with plenty of room in it for journeymen, visionary geniuses, and whackos alike (see Phil Spector).

All art is product, nostalgia is poison, and crippling notions of "authenticity" are the enemy of fun. And without fun, what's the point of music at all?
 
 
diz
18:06 / 25.02.03
i think the whole thing is really interesting in terms of the public image of Springsteen.

it kind of boggles my mind that 18+ years after the fact, "Born in the USA" is still generally regarded as a conservative Reaganite anthem by those who don't know the lyrics beyond the chorus. Nor are most people familiar with any of Springsteen's other work, which overall stands as a chronicle of the resilience of the working class in the face of the failures of the American Dream, which stands at odds with the "Morning in America" ideology. overall, most casual music fans associate him with a much more conservative outlook than they really should.

considering that, i think it's fucking fabulous that he took such a high profile opportunity to pay homage to Joe Strummer and to share a collaborative moment with Elvis Costello. it's especially notable at a time when his critical esteem is so high in the wake of The Rising, which many were surprised didn't net him a flock of Grammys, and at a time of such heavily jingoistic sentiment here in the States. in it's own way, it was a very public way of pitching his tent with people very unsympathetic to Dubya and the current national mood, and i think it was a very bold and principled move in a very understated way.

it's a pity that the gesture was probably lost on most people.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
18:12 / 25.02.03
Springsteen has made it pretty well known that he's anti-war and anti-Bush in his recent press, particularly the most recent issue of Entertainment Weekly.

Personally, I'm pro-Bruce in a general way, but I'm not much of a fan though I do like a fair few songs scattered throughout his discography. I don't like The Rising album all that much, particularly the title song which is just a bunch of yowling to these ears.

"Come on up for Verizon!"
 
 
beatorbebeat
21:43 / 25.02.03
So what you guys are saying is that you've given up on the idea of music for say... the sake of music. That because a band sells records they are working within the system and therefore have sold out on thier terms as opposed to those bands that never sell out. A band like the Clash may have signed to Epic records and yeah, they may have used the system for their own devices. But you guys cannot argue the fact that Clash is a better version of a punk band than say Good Charlotte, Blink-182 or anything that has come about lately. The Clash, all I'm saying, was a band that deserved more, before the death Of Strummer. I believe that the Grammys are not a viable place tribute for a man like Joe Strummer...
And that whole art is poison crap... grow the hell up, nobody with any notion of art would ever spout that crap. Art is art, nostalgia is vaiable when it serves as a vehicle for something to build on.
Weren't Joe Strummer and the Mescaleros on Hellcat records...Doesn't sound very corporate to me.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
22:36 / 25.02.03
You're operating on a whole lot of assumptions there, man.

First, I think you'd be well served to drop the notion of "selling out". There's a lot of music in this world, and when you start dividing music up into "sell outs" and "will never sell outs", you're going to end up tossing an incredible amount of amazing music into your sell-out bin. And that's just stupid.

The music is always far more important than the company that sold it, or how they sold it. Get over it. You're creating artificial boundaries, and that's counterproductive. Throw away your Maximumrocknrolls, man.

. But you guys cannot argue the fact that Clash is a better version of a punk band than say Good Charlotte, Blink-182

Yeah, that's probably true...

or anything that has come about lately

...but that is very very very debateable. I think you're dead wrong and ill-informed about this, personally.

I believe that the Grammys are not a viable place tribute for a man like Joe Strummer...

What the fuck are you trying to say?

1 : capable of living; especially : capable of surviving outside the mother's womb without artificial support
2 : capable of growing or developing
3 a : capable of working, functioning, or developing adequately b : capable of existence and development as an independent unit c (1) : having a reasonable chance of succeeding (2) : financially sustainable


Well, if you're going by definition #1, um, well, they did have tribute to The Clash on the Grammys. All of the performers survived.

If you're going by definition #2, well, it was a one-off deal. They won't be having another tribute on The Grammys next week or next year. There's no reason for it to grow or keep going on.

If it is #3, then we have to go back to #1 and point out that it worked out okay. It went on without a hitch, I don't believe anyone lost any money on it, and I think most people would consider it successful in that a bunch of Strummer's peers paid tribute to him and a whole lot of people watched at home.

Did you mean to say "appropriate"? If so, I'd disagree - NARAS is meant to represent the entire American recording industry, and is the most prestigious awards ceremony in all of the music industry. To be honored there is quite an achievement, and to be paid tribute by talented contemporaries is fantastic too. Before the performance, they showed a montage of at least 50 important figures in music, and Strummer was the only one to be paid special tribute with a performance - that's pretty amazing, I think. Millions of people saw that performance. That's quite a tribute.
 
 
Jack Fear
23:06 / 25.02.03
All art is product--the moment it has an audience.

Nostalgia is poison--because nostalgia, in its true sense, doesn't "build on" anything: nostalgia is what prevents you from enjoying anything new, because enjoying something new doesn't square with the core belief that everything was better back in the day.

The longing for "authenticity" is just another form of nostalgia.

The Clash were so much better than these new kids... Tell me another storyfrom the Punk Wars, Gran'pa.
 
 
A
03:50 / 27.02.03
Okay, you folks have convinced me about Steve Van Zandt. I wasn't aware he'd done that much. I guess I just assumed he was little more than a session muso.
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
11:47 / 27.02.03
When are Sonic Youth gonna get a lifetime achievment award?

(Just kidding.)
 
 
Foust is SO authentic
19:53 / 27.02.03
Hm. I discovered The Clash because of that tribute. I'm listening to Death Or Glory... and my God why hasn't anyone told me about these people before?

What else am I missing?
 
 
Babooshka
20:08 / 27.02.03
The music is always far more important than the company that sold it, or how they sold it. Get over it. You're creating artificial boundaries, and that's counterproductive. Throw away your Maximumrocknrolls, man. – Flux=Looking Like a Hot Date

Woo! Right on! Quote of the week right there...

 
  
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