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Invisibles

 
 
poser
22:45 / 19.02.03

Something that I still can't figure out from the series:

In 2.21 during Jack's discourse with the Blind Chessman, it's mentioned that now it's a rescue operation.

In 3.12 at the Academy, Mister Six and El-Fayed reveal to the initiates that it's a rescue operation.

Question is: rescue operation for who? Every other non-Invisible? Or the reader? It's fine if you don't want to give straight answers, as hints are just as good - or even better.
 
 
The Falcon
23:15 / 19.02.03
I think we're all stuck on that one.

I am anyway.

Midwifery?
 
 
Char Aina
23:22 / 19.02.03
maybe i am being so stupid i feel clever, but is it not a rescue operation for 'everything'? its like all of existence has been on a self help course and the invisibles are its 'positive thoughts'.

it felt like that to me mostly because of the interconnectedness of everything, the defeating by becoming(or more accurately, realising you are, and don't need to become) and the fact that mob kills the king of all tears, ruler of the past age.

please, though, thoughts and corrections.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
23:50 / 19.02.03
hmmm. try to remember.

hint:

anamnesis:

'loss of forgetfulness'

gohd.hime.sohe.upmice.elfsumt.aye.mmmms
 
 
dlotemp
01:01 / 20.02.03
Yawn has the answer.

or to quote Frank the 6ft tall bunny rabbit -

"Wake up, Donnie."

Everything is lost in the maya of the previous epoch. No is the time to eat the dream and awaken to a new day.
 
 
dlotemp
10:50 / 20.02.03
Check out the book - A BRIEF HISTORY OF EVERYTHING - by Ken Wilbur, or anything by him really. He has crafted a theoritical scaffolding that offers some insights as to where the series was headed and how it is "a rescue operation." Morrison has acknowledged Wilbur as an influence.

Good luck.
 
 
Aertho
13:23 / 20.02.03
I never felt that I misunderstood that line by El Fayed and Mister Six. By then, I'd given up on seeing things from an individual's perspective(which my be hard to explain). If you acknoweldge that all of humanity(all of sentient existence) can be thought of as a humongous lurching growing non-self-aware organism, the Invisibles aren't much more than that organism's white blood cells.

The Archons are actually a Good Thing in that they pinpoint and are coagulations of that organism's cancer, so that the Invisbles can target and destroy/annihilate/cure them. No one is different inside the organism, so people who have succumbed to the Archon's influence need to be saved. Which makes the whole Outer Church a Good Thing too. If you can percieve where "evil" is coming from, you can stop it from continuing to be evil.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
14:03 / 20.02.03
Ken Wilber?

you mean

whatsisname? Baldie?

oh yeah.

him.
 
 
PatrickMM
16:03 / 20.02.03
Since humanity has been trapped in its current configuration by the archons, the rescue mission would be to rescue humanity, which has been "kidnapped." Echoing what Chesed said, the archons point out what is wrong with humanity, and only when they appear, can the invisibles recognize the changes that have to be made. The archons point out the things that are holding humanity in captive, and the invisibles break down those walls, and rescue humanity, culminating in a free humanity that can move forward into the supercontext.
 
 
poser
23:00 / 20.02.03

Thanks, all this has been very helpful. And thanks for the Ken Wilbur reference, it sounds like it's worth looking into.

What's so puzzling(and probably will be still), in the discourse in 2.21:

"Edith said to call on Buddha.

But he misheard her.

Now it's a rescue operation."

I'm assuming that 'misheard' here comes in the form of 1.12 "Edith said to call him Brody."

Also from the discourse, the 'he' refers to John A'Dreams? Or will all questions be answered with a little more reading and a little bit more thought on what's already been posted?
 
 
PatrickMM
00:19 / 21.02.03
"Edith said to call on Buddha.

But he misheard her.

Now it's a rescue operation."

I'm assuming that 'misheard' here comes in the form of 1.12 "Edith said to call him Brody."


I haven't read it in a while so some of the details could be off, but as I recall, at one point Edith tells King Mob about "Amida Butsu," and then before Robin goes forward in time, Mob says "Edith says to call on Buddha." That gets distorted in time, and through the hand of glory and Robin's machine, it gets misinterperted by Bobby as "Edith says to call on Boody."

I'm still not sure how that exactly fits into the rescue mission motif. I think it's the contrast of Buddhist philosophy with the violence that has grounded humanity in its current state, and only by adopting Buddhist principles, like Jack does in Volume I, and KM does in Volume II, can we "rescue" humanity.

Also from the discourse, the 'he' refers to John A'Dreams? Or will all questions be answered with a little more reading and a little bit more thought on what's already been posted?

The literal way to approach would be that Bobby misheard her. I don't really see how John fits in there, but, he is outside the game, so technically he fits in everywhere.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:09 / 21.02.03
Yeah, I caught this too. I read it as Bobby the unlucky henchman, as a baby (when we're all a lot more sensitive to psychic stuff in our childhood since we haven't yet 'unlearned' things and we're still close to the previous world after just having arrived in this one in a new reincarnation or whatever) catches a telepathic wave of Edith's advice to King Mob (perhaps a chance for his soul to ride the salvation/good vibes wave in the first moments of his new life as an infant). But he mishears it, perhaps showing how his soul is fated to miss the boat on the good message of The Invisibles and instead get caught up in a lot of crap, bad karma, and self-destruction.

I did like how the parents were shocked that this newborn baby speaks totally clearly and then they rationalize that they must have imagined it and forget about it. And of course, he names his teddy bear "Boody" - the closest the poor guy gets to having the love of Christ/Buddha next to him in his life's journey.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:27 / 21.02.03
Also, the rescue operation is for all of humanity, to free us from the self-imposed bonds we wear and show us that the world is our playground and our 'holodeck,' as Morrison often says, that we can create and re-create (as also described in the fascinating book CONVERSATIONS WITH GOD). It's not a war good vs. evil, it's a rescue operation to save humanity from itself and teach it new ways to live and be. (Correlates with Grant Morrison's NEW X-MEN as a mutant rescue and emergency assistance squad)

Calling on Buddha in times of trouble is the same as calling on God's grace, Love, salvation, etc. - an essential part of the rescue operation that will set us all free. Realizing that we too are God when we are tied into and connected with the creative spirit of Pure Love. The henchman got a glimpse of the message but it got distorted and was therefore misheard and not used to its fullest extent.
 
 
Templar
17:33 / 21.02.03
As I've said before (sorry, very aware of repeating myself), The Invisibles is not really designed to be understood on a literal level, which is where any attempt to rationalise it and posit everything into some form of schemata will fall down. On a structural level, it is designed as a virus - the gradual breaking down of conventional structure to the level of isolated moments that we might designate as "cool" - short, bulleted statements of anarchistic intent, close-ups on unconventional poses or actions, etc. The rhetoric of the work is similar to that of Burroughs: Time, gentlement please. Wouldn't you? It evokes a state of mind probably (I'm extrapolating) similar to a trance, or a mystic religous ceremony (as in, not a religous ceremony such as the Christian binary logical system, but something designed to evoke a state of gnosis through considered use of keywords and influences). Sir Miles (for example) will never make any sense. He's not meant to. He represents both the aggressor, the servant of the greater aggressor and the fallen hero. As well as fulfilling his part within the cyclical structure (one of many) which he is part of - creating his own doom, working for the enemy without realising it, etc. In the context of this thread, rescue operation is on the same level as anything else said about Barbelith, or anything that Barbelith says. It's a game. Try to remember. This is a rescue operation. Rescuing what? From whom? Why? That's the point, you're thinking. It provokes the response. Is it a rescue operation for humanity from the situation we are put in? It is a gnostic sentiment, that the world is a trap, and that they're resucing us? You decide. But you thinking about it is the point. It gets into your head, and never resolves itself, making it more powerful than something than can be stated logically.

Sorry, bit drunk, not sure if that makes sense, but I'm off out now, so I can't be arsed to check it back.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
14:14 / 22.02.03
Templar As I've said before (sorry, very aware of repeating myself), The Invisibles is not really designed to be understood on a literal level,

And as I think I've said before, that's bollocks.
 
 
Templar
14:23 / 22.02.03
Mmm, incisive and witty.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
15:47 / 22.02.03
I thought so. As this is one of the topics that have been argued over at great length before I would frankly have my arse surgically connected to the digestive system of the God of Strong Curries rather than reiterate the argument again right now, but felt that the sheer withered testicleness of your argument needed to be highlighted.
 
 
Templar
16:38 / 22.02.03
Yes, well highlighted. And with such style and grace too. If this topic doesn't interest you, why don't you leave it alone, so people who are interested can discuss it in a civil and adult fashion? As to your stunning display of rhetorical power, rebutting my arguement... well, yes, quite.
 
 
Templar
17:03 / 22.02.03
Also, aren't there echoes of 2001 here? Obviously visually the shots of Barbelith lurking beyond the moon echo the end of the film. And the midwife references could also be interpreted in this way.
 
 
PatrickMM
17:12 / 22.02.03
As I've said before (sorry, very aware of repeating myself), The Invisibles is not really designed to be understood on a literal level, which is where any attempt to rationalise it and posit everything into some form of schemata will fall down.

I think this is completely discounting a lot of what Morrison did. Sure, a lot of stuff is very difficult to reconcile, but at its heart the book has a narrative that is defenitely comprehensible, and can be understood. There are logical character arcs, and the plot can be rationalized.

Sir Miles (for example) will never make any sense. He's not meant to. He represents both the aggressor, the servant of the greater aggressor and the fallen hero. As well as fulfilling his part within the cyclical structure (one of many) which he is part of - creating his own doom, working for the enemy without realising it, etc.

The reason that Miles doesn't work out perfectly as a character is that he is human, he's not 100% "evil," but he also can't fully commit himself to the cause of the Invisibles. Miles made choices that trapped him in a life he doesn't want, and throughout the series he is paying the price of those choices. He represents many things, and is full of contradictions, but he is also human, like any good character should be.

Overall, yes there are a lot of passages that are tough to analyze and may not quite hang together, but overall, the Invisibles is comprehensible on a literal level, and to say otherwise is a cop out, and an insult to what Morrison has accomplished.
 
 
Templar
17:26 / 22.02.03
I think it's a lot more difficult to create a work that contains a meaning that exists both on a literal narrative level and a more vague and undefined level. Yes, there is a narrative, but the closer in you get in examining its construction, the more it is open to different interpretations and reconstructions. I really don't think it's insulting to Morrison to compare his work to writers like Pynchon and Burroughs.
 
 
PatrickMM
17:54 / 22.02.03
I think it's a lot more difficult to create a work that contains a meaning that exists both on a literal narrative level and a more vague and undefined level. Yes, there is a narrative, but the closer in you get in examining its construction, the more it is open to different interpretations and reconstructions. I really don't think it's insulting to Morrison to compare his work to writers like Pynchon and Burroughs.

That's true. My only problem with your original post was you implied that the narrative couldn't be dealt with at all on a literal level, and that it was little more than a bunch of moments strung together. I love the vagueness and the many levels of narrative, but there is still a core of the book that is a solid and cohesive whole.
 
 
Templar
18:16 / 22.02.03
Yes, I'm afraid I wasn't being particularly lucid at that point. Apologies. I maintain that you cannot rewrite the entire narrative as a step-by-step logical process, as parts are deliberately obscured both to enhance its viral properties and to force the reader into a more mystical understanding of the work's message. The same way that you couldn't write out the "story" of a film like The Thin Red Line, that relies of ambiguity and sensory input to create a sense of meaning rather than a defined meaning.
 
 
Aertho
19:05 / 22.02.03
you cannot rewrite the entire narrative as a step-by-step logical process

But shouldn't someone at least try?

I'm the dummy that asked "what is a fiction suit?" last fall. I was just getting out of reading the books then and I wanted someone to explain the story in a lucid, flat, step-by-step process, so that my understanding could be reaffirmed and possibly enhanced.

For whomsoever started this thread, and may still be trying to read it:
What helped me along in understanding the STORY of The Invisibles is thinking of John A Dreams as the Gnostic Demiurge. When he steps outside of 4D, the presence of his individual consciousness cracks 5D space. The result of this "step" extends forward and backward in time/space, creating the entire universe. Thus, he is a fictionsuit for EVERY character in the story. His line as Quimper: "Once I was a little light" is true(The Big Bang). Though in interviews and discourse here, John A Dreams is referred to as becoming The Division X guy, the Barbelith Alien that becomes Quimper, and an Outer Church agent, as if that is all he does. He is present in everyone, good, bad, other, both, either, -it's just that those characters fulfill a need* that John A Dreams steers.

The mind of John A Dreams, who is forever outside AND inside the game, is The Blind Chessman Satan, and uses both "good" and "evil" to get Jack Frost at the exact point where he eats the Archons*. All else is just waiting and moving around.
 
 
Templar
19:39 / 22.02.03
But shouldn't someone at least try?I don't think so. On a really simple level, I get a similar reaction when I pick up the DVD for a film I love, and read the precis on the back. It's not only a reaction against somebody misinterpreting something (everybody has their own response to things, so it's pretty much inevitable that I'm not going to agree with a 100 word description of some film masterpiece written by some advertising executive) but also the feeling of awkward translation that misses the point. Anything of worth in a given medium draws most of its power from its use of that medium, and translating across media never works (there must be exceptions, I can't think of any off the top of my head). The film of The Name of the Rose wasn't attrocious (at least as far as I remember - my film sensibilities have only recently start to refine themselves, and it's been a while since I saw it) but was no way near the book. It seems to be a particularly logocentric tendency (maybe getting out of my depth here, it's been a while since I read Derrida) that we need to fill in all gaps, rationalise and posit everything into a binary structure. But the things that move me the most, and continue to move me, are the things that I have resisted this urge with. Of course we're going to ask questions, and want to know how everything links up, but it seems to me to be a dubious undertaking to set everything down in stone as the structure and meaning when the author has deliberately introduced elements of mystery. All this debate really becomes centred on things like The Invisibles. I haven't heard your theory about John a Dreams before, and whilst it's interesting enough, it doesn't resonate with how I've used the comic, intersecting with my own predelictions and thoughts, to create something greater. Clearly for you this idea does exactly that. And both our interpretations are equally valid, as reader responses to a text. But I don't want to argue which is right - they both are. It's not something, at least according to my reading, which it is necessary to argue about - the text is open to infinite variations of imaginative fill-in because these are the areas that are muddy, unclear and mysterious. If somebody produced a text which attempted to say exactly where all the pieces fit, and what is a correct interpretation of the narrative and what isn't, then that would seem to me to belitte the entire piece by trying to make it conform to a certain logic.For whomsoever started this thread, and may still be trying to read itSorry if I'm pissing you off, but I've been thinking about this a lot recently. Morrison has talked (sorry, no direct reference) about using styles and fashions to create a viral idea, hence he's not too angry about The Matrix, and it occured to me that a viral structure for the story itself is a much more powerful way of doing this than manipulating mis-en-scene.All of which is not to say that people shouldn't treat the material in whatever way they feel like, but just that I personally doubt the importance of trying to make a finished jigsaw out of the pieces. So, if nobody has anything else of worth to add, I suggest that we just leave this here, as my input is obviously getting on people's nerves. Agree to disagree?
 
 
Aertho
23:31 / 22.02.03
I just got into this, man. Of course I can agree to disagree

I completely agree with your interpretation of "less [reader interpretive input] is more Morrison quality", provided someone can do all the work necessary to see and feel the virus for what it is. However, I'm from the camp that really struggled with the context of the book. I desperately wanted to understand it as much as possible. While I did understand it on all the levels I really needed to "get it" on, I felt at the time I wasn't following the flow and kept stumbling from cool scene one to cool scene two.

I think for people like me, there should be a place where they can see how others may have interpreted the linear flow... so that we don't have to continue having these discussions.

We ALL agree that any linear flow would be strictly reader-interpretive, so novices would be made aware that they'd be going extra miles just by reading it.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:02 / 23.02.03
I've just started re-reading the whole fucking thing again, having just read "Anarchy For The Masses" and found myself at various points going- "whoah, I completely missed out on that !"

Personally, I think it does work on a literal level. It's just that is also works on various others. Remember, there's a cracking good spy yarn in there as well as the magick and the comic's magickal intent.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
19:48 / 23.02.03
templar, templar!

not getting on my nerves, but then my mum's maiden name's St.John.

We have similar digestive systems obviously, cept my lower intestine at least attempts (dna throwback! - how is the grail by the way?)to define a structural narrative of sorts, while acids elsewhere 'make friends' with the Invisibles en-viro-(n)ment in the manner you describe.

Gnostic wankflash as opposed to binary 'reading on the bog and flush' models.

Yeah?

Meaning:

There is structure inherent to the Invisibles but it doesn't resemble or function in the way we expect structure to work in the traditionsal storytelling sense.

Keeping it psychedelic:

instead of drinking a cup of tea, you go swimmimng in the teapot.

So instead, I'm sure you'll agree, we look for re-iterating geometries to ground ourselves within the experience aka the Invisibles. I say geometries as opposed to 'storylines' because the structures which do repeat themselves at varying scales and at different angles tend to encompass more than just plot.

Panels re-occur

sentences are repeated

symbols come and go

dramas are replayed

themes are enforced

mask are constantly worn

and loads of other things whoich repeat but could not be considered as narrative drivers.

If I knew more about film theory I may have used the word 'montage' to explain what I'm on about, but I don't, so I won't.

Or maybe it was collage.

I dunno.
 
 
poser
00:12 / 24.02.03
For whomsoever started this thread, and may still be trying to read it Sorry if I'm pissing you off, but I've been thinking about this a lot recently.

No worries. I think that the statement that there isn't a literal interpretation to the story becomes a realtive one. Large chunks of the Invisibles may not be open to literal interpretation, but that shouldn't be an excuse to disregard the ones that do. An effort should be made to at least approximate yourself to whatever idea was initially put forward in the comic book. Readers may walk away with their own interpretation, but when further discourse with other readers become so much more rewarding, I think the worst thing to do would be to just shut up and leave it at that.

Like you said, both interpretations of the argument is right, but then again I'm not interested with who's right either; it's just interesting to see what others think.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
07:21 / 24.02.03
I just realised that all the ‘geometries’ I identified are actually ‘narrative drivers’ common to most traditional stories. So dinnae slag us aff.
 
 
glassonion
10:33 / 24.02.03
does yr ma pronounce her old surname 'saint john' or 'sinjun'?
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
11:37 / 24.02.03
sinjun o'kors.
 
 
glassonion
11:31 / 25.02.03
good
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
14:19 / 25.02.03
phew!
 
  
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