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America

 
 
kaonashi
23:14 / 10.02.03
I know we are the bad guys, I know.

We are the 1500 pound bully of the world who occasionally thinks that he is helping the other kids by either taking their lunch money or by turning their homes, schools, lives into even bigger hellholes than he did the last time.

I know that with our current leadership we are perhaps the largest threat to personal freedoms and civil liberties on the planet.

I know.

I watch television and read newspapers and see a situation grown increasingly surreal and frightening everday, and thats only from our media!

A large number of you hail from the 51st state that we used to call England. And your attitude towards America as a whole, and particularly the white middleclass non-mind has grown both vicious and unrepentant.

With good reason.

But I grew up inside that non-mind, my parents are Literalist Christians, white and they vote Republican when it doesn't hurt their conscience to much. They could be a symbol of this hated oblivion we call the American Dream.

I know no better people.
Their only fault is ignorance, they have a genuine love for their fellow humanity that I don't think I could ever feel. America has become the Roman empire and it sees itself surrounded by savages it doesn't understand.

And every empire falls, but it is never a good thing.

The point being, without my education in this symbol of all you call wrong with the world I would never have the freedom to be Anti-American.

And 60% of us didn't like the options enough to vote.
And 50% of us think that this whole war thing is a really bad idea.

And I like America, even as I mourn its end.
Because it will end.

And no, I'm not innercircle with a different suit name.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:19 / 10.02.03
A large number of you hail from the 51st state that we used to call England.

The United Kingdom.
 
 
Cailín
23:46 / 10.02.03
Greetings from damned near the 52nd state. We call it Canada. Our economy is largely dependent on decisions made by the American government. We are your biggest trade partner. We bend over and let your government violate us on NAFTA, as if we weren't already getting the short end of the stick on that deal. We waffle on foreign policy issues (like going to war in the middle east) until the last minute, then side with you, because we can't afford to piss the bully off. Ah, that lovely feeling of impotence, as we come along to help pick on the little guy. But, like any guilt-ridden tag-along, we know it could just as easily have been us (although in our case, we're too close to bomb, but economic and trade sanctions would be good and crippling), we stick around, pick the poor, defeated bastard up and brush him off, with a half-hearted, "Gee, I'm really sorry, fella." America, the 1500 pound bully of the world indeed.
I should round this out with something good to say about America, but I'm coming up shy. Most Americans I've met are decent people, but your government is hell-bent on self destruction, and I think it's going to take a lot of us down with it.
 
 
Baz Auckland
00:02 / 11.02.03
The Americans I've met were nice. Some thought Canada was a state somewhere north of California, but that's okay. It was founded on nice ideals too. Good intentions count for something, right?

You can't hate the people, just the system, but that goes for most of the posters' countries on here. And we all share somewhat in the responsibility of the actions of our countries.

But yeah, the USA seems to be the best example of nasty governments right now. It reminds me of what I read the 80s were like with the USA in South and Central America. I'm suprised Cuba wasn't taken out last year, but I guess they're just waiting for Castro to go naturally....
 
 
the Fool
02:41 / 11.02.03
Good afternoon from the 53rd State (well we'll get to be a state if we behave really good)that of Ooostraaaalia.

We have a minature Prime Minister, who loves a bit of deepthroat action with George. In fact, he'll let George tie him up and spank him on TV while saying 'who's your daddy?'.

Yes, Johnny does us proud.
 
 
the Fool
02:51 / 11.02.03
Good things about America?

mmm...

It gave us Derrick Carter. It can't all be bad...
 
 
Brigade du jour
04:08 / 11.02.03
And Happy Days.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
08:34 / 11.02.03
I didn't think it was '60% didn't like the options enough to vote', I thought it was 60% couldn't be arsed and most of the rest who wanted to vote Democrat were prevented.

I grew up loving the US, it was unavoidable. On TV the UK would give us 'Play School', the US gave us 'He-Man'. I grew up reading Star Wars and Transformer comics, half-entertaining the notion of moving to America because that was where all the cool shit was, and surprised if anything I remotely liked turned out to be not American (I remember at the age of six finding out that the band Queen, who my Mum was a fan of, were English. I hadn't thought anyone cool would not be American. When I grew older I realised my mistake. They weren't cool.).

And as a young kid, I'd watch the news, see that nice Mrs Thatcher and that jolly Grandad Reagan and think it was great they were protecting the world.

Then I grew up and found out about the shit they were involved with. Not just from a political ideology, which I could understand if not accept, but from what seemed like a genuine desire to assault the world and stamp repeatedly on it's throat.

So now, I'm more wary. I distrust pretty much every Government, it's just that as America is the openly busy it's the one I'm most openly vocal about myself.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:49 / 11.02.03
Right.

The country currently helmed by George Bush Jr. is The United States of America. America is a continent. Inhabitants of the United States of America are Americans, but the metonymic association of the US with America is a dangerous one.

The country currently helmed by Mr. Tony Blair is the United Kingdom. It contains four administrative areas, two of them possessing devolved assemblies of varying legislative power. "England" is a unit within the United Kingdom, but MPs from Wales, Scotland and Northern Island will also be voting on war, and soldiers from Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland will also be coming under fire from US air forces on the ground.

This reminds me somewhat of the "they hate us because we're free" stuff being peddled by the US administration. The idea that everyone hates the US, or that "hate" is even a sensible term in matters of policy, is as self-serving and dumb as the idea that France loves Iraq because it is currently blocking attempts to invade it. it is possible to disagree with something without hating it, and the sooner people get their heads round that fairly basic proposition the better off everyone will be.

That's point one. Now....

But I grew up inside that non-mind, my parents are Literalist Christians, white and they vote Republican when it doesn't hurt their conscience to much. They could be a symbol of this hated oblivion we call the American Dream.

I know no better people.


Well, that's lovely. But what do we mean here by "literalist Christians"? Do we mean, for exmaple, that they believe that homosexuality is a sin, and that homosexuals will, and should, burn in a lake of fire for all eternity, or any of the other bits of wacky shit that don't actually turn up in the Bible but seem to be popular among those who sincerely believe themselves to be following it? How about the belief in the rapture, or the more general belief that when the world ends they will be preserved forever? Only I am really scared by the idea that the people and indeed the cabinet of the most powerful nation in the world holds such beliefs. When our media were talking about these fanatical, savage Arabs who believed that death would secure them a place in paradise...well. Being good people is all well and groovy, but it doesn't actually help if you have some belief system that allows you not to care about what other people believe, because your actions arte justified by a higher power.


Their only fault is ignorance, they have a genuine love for their fellow humanity that I don't think I could ever feel. America has become the Roman empire and it sees itself surrounded by savages it doesn't understand.

Actually, that isn't how the Roman Empire fell.

The picture of ferocious pagan hordes overcoming, not intoxicated catamites, but ascetic and otherworldly Christians is a little different from the standard one, but perhaps it would do....if not for another little problem: The Goths, who defeated and killed the emperor Valens at Adrianople in 378, and who later established kingdoms in Spain (the Visigoths, 416-711) and Italy (the Ostrogoths, 493-553), were themselves literate Christians, converted by St. Wulfila (or Ulfilas, c.311-c.383), who also designed the alphabet to write Gothic (which thus became the first written Germanic language). The Visigoths entered the Empire by permission as refugees from the Huns and only went to war because of their mistreatment: They had been reduced by the Romans to selling themselves into slavery for the sake of meals of rat meat -- at a rate of one rat for one slave. This now makes one wonder whom to call the barbarians.

And every empire falls, but it is never a good thing.

Well, the fall of the Austro-Hungarian Empire was probably not a bad thing. the Prussian Empire was an absolute pain in the arse. the Athenian empire, much as I love those guys, was pretty nasty at times. And, hang on...now that I think about it, although the way it was done was pretty shoddy, the end of the French, Belgian and British empires was probably a good thing. You know, with the freedom?

The point being, without my education in this symbol of all you call wrong with the world I would never have the freedom to be Anti-American.

You ain't. No offence, but what you are expressing is not Anti-Americanism. It's confusion at other people's perceived Anti-Americanism. For God's sake, man. You didn't even bother to learn that there is no such sovereign nation as England before demanding to know why we hated America. How do you think that lack of curiosity, coupled with massive destructive power, makes people feel?

It may be time to broaden your perspective. I don't think many people here hate America, or more preciseley the United States of America. However, many people here are deeply suspicious of the Bush administration, and aware that it is fostering and supporting a way of life that is toxic to the continuing survival of the world. That the United States administration is currently heaping vitriol on nations unwilling to support its foreign policy, after having demanded special rights in every attempt so far to combat climate change, reduce consumption of resources and, for that matter, prosecute war criminals in an international court.

Right now, a lot of that suspicion is based around the USA's apparent abuse of Article 51 of the United Nations charter, claiming that this entitles it to act militarily and, if necessary, independently against other members of the United Nations, in self-defence when no border is threatened. Personally, I am concerned that military action in the Middle East, a region apparently barely understood even geographically by the population of the United States, is likely to destabilise moderate regimes and greatly increase the likelihood of terrorist attacks on the capital cities of Western nations. Pure self-interest demands that I question the motives and the wisdom of US policy.

Also, the US produced The Wonder Years. You unbelievable fuckers.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
09:31 / 11.02.03
When I grew older I realised my mistake. They weren't cool.).
You're just saying that because they only made that outfit with the eyes on it in Elfin Freddie Size. Admit it!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:41 / 11.02.03
Which reminds me - does anyone feel like suggesting this be moved to the Head Shop?
 
 
bjacques
12:32 / 11.02.03
Or, to look at it another way, friendly nations are like your good buddies and they have a duty to tell you if they think you're acting like a bastard. I'd hate the US to become the world's Michael Jackson, with only paid sycophants between us and opportunistic enemies.
 
 
Eloi Tsabaoth
12:45 / 11.02.03
I'd hate the US to become the world's Michael Jackson...
Great, now I have the image of George Bush Jr smiling creepily at Martin Bashir, his fingers interlaced with Tony Blair's...
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
13:14 / 11.02.03
This isn't meant to anger people, but is more intended as a sad note. Oh, and I hate my country. Hate it to the core and do not trust it a bit. I enjoy my freedom to say that, but Jesus, I hate this place. We're given the illusion that we can facilitate change and we have the power to influence those in power, but we have been shown again and again that we do not, that we are the tail that gets wagged, not the other way around.

It's all well and good to look at these things from a distance and relate them to history, etc, but if the US were to go down, it would drag so many other economies with it, leaving many cold starving, etc.

More directly, this morning the news advised people to prepare for terrorist attack by stocking up on food for three days (why 3 days?? the body trucks will be done by then and we'll get coffee and donuts dropped off by plane??). This bothers me because I'm young and sensible and I'm scared and hating my job, needing one little thing to keep me from going in, but what about the elderly who are getting daily screwing from the Government on healthcare and social security, watching their money go down the drain and their family losing money unable to support them?? They must be pissing themselves in fear, and that is so wrong.

We have a country that is bent on controlling our reactions and freaking us out on a daily basis. And there's nothing we can do about it. The rest of the world hates the US and I don't blame them. But we're going to Hell in a handbasket and I doubt this thing will end up well. I really have a bad feeling about all this. A feeling that in a few months, the UK lithers will have far less US members to talk to about theory on what's up with America, because we'll be cooking rats over oil cans, staring at burnt out TVs, waiting for the coffee and donuts to drop. The fact that a friend of mine was working in NYC one day and the next moment the WTC went down contributes to this, surely. We are very easily gotten to, because we as a country are a mess. And Homeland Security is not going to save us. Every day on the T to Boston, I look over the Charles River, waiting to see a plane drop a blinding white flash.

Ofcourse, I might be reading too much Philip K Dick.
 
 
Fist Fun
13:29 / 11.02.03
The idea of friendly nations is ludicrous. The current government of France shouldn't fall into line with the US administration because of American support during the Second World War. They should adopt a policy relevant to the current world situation and to the mandate upon which they were voted into office.
 
 
illmatic
14:05 / 11.02.03
King Rain - quickly, what I hate about America - the Bush goverment, American economic muscle and state power. I don't see any reason to confuse this with the peeople of the 'States or it's culture. I know this is part of what Haus is saying above but sometimes you need the quick translation.
 
 
grant
14:27 / 11.02.03
Haus: a "literalist Christian" is a fundamentalist; one who believes that the Bible is literally true, that the only metaphors or allegories are ones that are formally stated to be such. (Mainly parables). There are common beliefs (there will be a rapture, unrepentant homosexuals will burn in Hell), but a lot of debate over the details of those beliefs (whether the rapture will come before or after the Tribulation, for instance - or whether it's possible for a homosexual to repent).
I'm not convinced the current administration buys this world-view as much as they realize they were voted in by people who buy this world-view. Political expedience and all that. At least, when I think about the "falling star named Wormwood" of nukular war, that's what I hope.

Might be interesting following this out - the religion of politics. Because, in part, I think one of the big differences in national identity between the UK and USA (and especially England and the USA) is not just the notion of a "state religion" (the Church of England) but the differences between the C of E and sola scriptura Calvin-inflected Protestantism.
It was a big deal when JFK got elected because he was the first non-Protestant president. And that was only 40 years ago... and he's been the only one. So there's a de facto state religion here, but it's not named as such.
 
 
illmatic
14:41 / 11.02.03
Might as well admit I nicked that wholesale from Chomsky. Here he is, talking about being called anti-American.

In terms of what do I think is good about it, grudingly or not - 99% of my record collection, a lot of my favourite films, Thomas fucking Pynchon, the fascination I've had with Black disporia culture in the 'states and elsewhere (not good as such, but a source of much illumination to me)etc etc. And almost every American I've met.
 
 
Fist Fun
14:55 / 11.02.03
I wonder to what point a product that comes from America is essentially and completely American though. Take the example of He Man. The fact that it was shown on British TV makes it a part of British culture no matter where it comes from. In fact there is a sort of joint community, of shared reference, between every region that it has been aired. Entertainment and culture, like business, can transcend nationalism.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
21:15 / 11.02.03
Might be interesting following this out - the religion of politics. Because, in part, I think one of the big differences in national identity between the UK and USA (and especially England and the USA) is not just the notion of a "state religion" (the Church of England) but the differences between the C of E and sola scriptura Calvin-inflected Protestantism.

Well - though we have an established Church, I don't think it operates anything like a state religion would. For starters there's that old chestnut that more people attend football matches than go to the Anglican church every weekend, and attendances seem to be falling or to be static at a low level. I'd say that the only real influence the C of E has would be on individual politicians (dear old Jonathan Aitken) - it doesn't really have anything like the influence that religion has in the US. You do get the odd spat in which religious leaders, archbishops etc are called upon to stand firm against homosexuality, etc etc, but since most of them are unwilling to do that any more I suspect this is largely a secular conservative reaction, rather than a religious one. I think that the UK has a pretty secular political culture in general - that's probably where some of the incomprehension comes in. If any politician here were to start spouting about 'one nation under God' s/he'd probably get laughed out of Parliament...

TB himself is RC, of course.
 
 
Mr Tricks
22:53 / 11.02.03
I wonder to what point a product that comes from America is essentially and completely American though. Take the example of He Man.

Keep in mind the actual toy where probably manufactured in Hong Kong or Taiwan...

I could say I'm a decendant of one of the few remaining U.S. colonies... Though My parents moved to the Mainland before I was born.

I hate the fact that said colonie is still being used as a Bombing range dispite the obvious desent of it's people. But that's prettymuch in line with most of what I hate about america... the Prison Industrial complex as many call it. Much of the "pop" mentality that makes many believe Adam Sandler is funny and Britney Spears is talented and SURVIVOR is a good tv show.

what I LIKE? comics, hip hop, movies, california certified organic food, mac, New York City, San Francisco... and my dog.
 
 
Funktion
00:47 / 12.02.03
The true problem reaches far beyond mere national labels at this point...

Certain immortal collectivist entities of enormous wealth have made sure that they can operate beyond national beyoundaries not only with ease but with delight...
 
 
kaonashi
03:58 / 12.02.03
Two things, apologies about the misuse of the word England, I realize that the nation is the United Kingdom, I was used to using the word to refer to the entire nation.

And no my parents aren't that bad, though they are similar to the caricature you've presented Haus.

I myself fall into neither Democrat nor Republican, because here the only differences are semantic. America as a nation has always been conservative, its only a question of how conservative.

And liberal and conservative are both less than useless ways to look at the situation. Its about power and greed, and about guilt. The atrocities America committed to gain this continent and the abuse of its own citizens whether because of race or sexuality are still fresh memories.

So half of us feel guilty about it, and the others ignore it.

Apathy is our crime, and stupidity and lust for war our leaders.

There must be a social and ethical position that we can rally round because the old ways of thinking are done.
 
 
Fist Fun
07:19 / 12.02.03
Certain immortal collectivist entities of enormous wealth have made sure that they can operate beyond national beyoundaries not only with ease but with delight...

Which, of course, isn't necessarily a bad thing. In fact operating transnationally should be a natural and normal behaviour. The problem is when multinational corporations are able to operate transnationally without the democratic social controls that operate at national levels. Effective supranational laws and bodies are needed. However, the only ones that seem to exist seem to be for trade and operate seemingly in the interest of the corporations - e.g. the power of the WTO.
 
 
illmatic
07:42 / 12.02.03
King Rain - one thing that's been gaining a lot of press in the UK lately in light of the coming war, is the death/decline of the American left - intellectual space seems to have been colonised by the Right, so all the pundits are saying, alongside speculation that the intense right wing agenda in the 'States is going to cause a counter-reaction. I'd say that's a big difference in the political culture of the two countries (as far as I'm able to judge from a distance) - we seem to have a strong left wing culturally, even if it's supposed parlimentary represntatvies (New Labour) have largely been co-opted by big business, much as the Democrats have.

When you speak of a shared agenda to rally round, perhaps this is what your looking for - some kind of popular leftist movement or culture?
 
 
kaonashi
19:03 / 12.02.03
I'm talking about a sane approach towards our steadily dwindling resources, a focus on surviving the next hundred years environmentally speaking. I agree with Fair Trade people when it comes to most economic and political situations. I'm not a pacifist, but I'm opposed to this fucking stupid war. I'm not anti-capitalism despite its huge problems, so far I've not heard a better alternative. I'm almost socialist when it comes to health care and various assisted living ideas. I'm opposed to big government and would like to see some sort of co-op system. But I agree with conservatives on some issues too.

Its a really fucking complicated situation, I'm sure we all realize this. But neither Democrat nor Republican seems to follow the important points. And the Green party doesn't have a fucking chance.
 
 
Slim
20:09 / 13.02.03
I hate this thread and I'm reading it in America. Does that count? I'm more than a little disappointed by people's reactions in this thread. America isn't as bad as some of you are making it out to be and certainly not the worst country/government in the world.
 
 
Baz Auckland
20:21 / 13.02.03
No, but as the current situation goes, the US is the leader, so...

I always find its better to say 'western' than American, since for the most part (evil corporations, foreign oppression, etc.) we're all responsible.
 
 
Slim
03:26 / 14.02.03
I like that terminology, Barry. I don't think what the United States has done is any different from what other Western nations have done themselves.

It's true that Bush and his cronies are leading the charge into Iraq but surely some blame must be placed on countries like Spain and Italy (and the other what, 6 countries who made that announcement backing Bush) who have come off as nothing but syncophants, eager to please Bush in hopes of future rewards.
 
 
sleazenation
10:43 / 14.02.03
The governments of the UK, Australia and all of the "active allies" are culpable for their own input into the war but the policy initiative is definitely coming from the white house which is exerting pressure on its allies and critics alike to get behind it.

An interesting question - does anyone think that military action, let alone regeme change would even be on the agenda if not for the current Administration in the White house?
 
 
Dances with Gophers
11:18 / 14.02.03
That is an interesting question sleazenation, I get the impression Bush is trying to make Daddy proud and Blair is trying to become the next Thatcher. I thought it was just me being my usual hyper-cynical self but it is something I'm hearing more and more often.

My opinion of USA is a bit complex, my Mum comes from Canada, from a family that fled the US at some point, so I was brought up to distrust the US. However personal experience has modified this view.
I like the Americans that I've met, I like the Ideas the US was founded on. The problems the Brits have with the US is due to a distrust of both the US govt and our Govt's 'roll over like a good puppy' relationship. Culturally we are more different than we think we are. Oh yes and there is also a slight feeling maybe you yankies are a bit cooler than us Limeys!
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
12:13 / 14.02.03
Slim- This thread is supposed to be about America... The abstract does ask what you hate and like about it.
 
  
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