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Cardboard dialogue.

 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:55 / 06.02.03
This is a problem I keep coming up against in my writing. The descriptive, non-talky stuff is a doddle, but try as I might my dialogue still comes out stiffer than an economy beefburger. I've done the obvious thing of listening to real people really talking and making notes; what else would the writerly types out there suggest?
 
 
Shortfatdyke
20:02 / 06.02.03
I don't listen to real people. I have my characters formed pretty squarely in my head and *they* shape the talking. Who are they? What's the situation? It's as simple as that, for me.

This thread has the potential to become extremely pompous! I'm now off to read through my own stuff to see if my dialogue is actually any good....
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
20:36 / 06.02.03
Write down what you want them to say as a plain old unfancy list -- like, the jist of each line, then read it out loud. You should be able to hear where the rhythm wants to go. This always leads me to overcompensate, so that I start disliking the way words are spelled and re-spelling everything -- the first example that comes to mind is "fucken" for "fucking" -- so later I have to go back & fix it.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
13:36 / 07.02.03
Can you give us an example of what you think is wrong with it/an example of yr dialogue so we can all see what we think?

Or if you don't want to, how about reading people like Martin Amis, who is particularly interested in how people (esp strange exotic working-class people like Keith in London Fields) speak?

Or pick up a playscript or screenplay by someone you admire and have a flick thru, see what they do. Depends what kind of book you are writing but I suggest as 2 exemplary extremes Quentin Tarantino and Richard Curtis (Notting Hill, 4 Weddings etc.)

Maybe write it out like you were writing a play and only put the descriptive bits in after?
 
 
grant
13:52 / 07.02.03
I'm with Qalyn on this one - if you want to know if it sounds right, say it out loud. Talk to yourself. Channel.
 
 
Loomis
14:11 / 07.02.03
It's quite possible that your dialogue is not as bad as you think. When we think of all the timeless Licherachoor we want to write, the sparkling passages of which we dream and which we idolize in our favourite writers are usually not the dialogue. So after sculpting some Booker/Pullitzer winning passages, we get to our dialogue and it seems so ... normal and well, boring. But speech tends to be like that. If you transcribed a real conversation between your friends, you'd see how much drivel and purely functional non-literary bits there are in a conversation. And I think it's important to allow yourself that. Not every conversation in your writing can be full of Tarrantino-esque quips on postmodern culture.

I always used to struggle with dialogue because it seemed to be commonplace stuff that was necessary to the structure of the writing, but not very interesting in itself. But these days after lots of practice (there's another thing - the more of it you write, the smoother and more natural it feels) I feel much more confident with it, and start to stress more over the other stuff, which is an odd turnaround.

Now whether I've just lowered my standards to let in my crappy dialogue, or whether I've just become more comfortable with the ordinariness of speech, allowing myself to enjoy the less-showy but nonetheless vital and entrancing rhythms of conversation, is anyone's guess, but it gets me through.

An important feature of prose versus something like poetry is that it achieves a lot of its effect through accretion of detail. Characters can reveal themselves slowly through subtle rhythms in their speech. What you think is cardboard now might just be a necessary part of that character's construction, which will develop throughout the length of the work, and you need to give it that time, and allow for some ordinariness in their speech along the way.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
15:07 / 07.02.03
Think of Lenny in Of Mice and Men. Great character - practically no dialogue.

Can you make one/all of your characters mute, or at least very very taciturn?
 
 
rizla mission
15:52 / 07.02.03
Oddly, I find things are generally the other way 'round.. I can write dialogue without that much difficulty .. not witty dialogue, cos I'm slow witted and generally, well, not witty, but I find it quite easy to write what prople would most likely say in a given situation.

Only problem is that this usually results in far too much swearing.. I mean, in highly stressful and frightening situations, I'm sure most people would respond by going "Agh, fuck! This is fucking terrible! fuck off! Oh fuck!" etc., which while realistic, doesn't make for terribly good reading..
 
 
Perfect Tommy
16:49 / 07.02.03
How about, Write down the information you want imparted, without worrying about voice. Then try writing that information as a rocket scientist, one with a penchant for multisyllabic discourse and complex sentence structure, might say it. Then go the other way--simple words, short phrases, same meaning.

I write things down and look at them, and only then can I see, "Oh, Dr. Flibbertyflap wouldn't use that word, he'd use this word."

(I think that's what Qalyn said.)
 
 
Perfect Tommy
16:50 / 07.02.03
Oh, and I don't think dialogue should sound like real people talking. It should sound like one thinks real people talking sound like. The old "build the Parthenon off-kilter so it looks square" routine.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:05 / 07.02.03
Fuck it. I think I'll just kill everyone and make 'em all zombies.

"Braaainnns..."
"Braiiins."
"Brrraaainsss?"
"Braiiiinnnnssss!"
"Brainssss."
"Brainnssss brrraiiiins. Braaainnns braaaiiinsss braiinsss braaains."
"Braaainnsss.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
20:17 / 09.02.03
Dammit, MC, I said write what you think people sound like, not what they really sound like.

By the by, if anyone could nip by the mall, I'm running out of shotgun shells.
 
 
rizla mission
13:19 / 10.02.03
I'd totally buy a book where all the characters were zombies.

It would be brilliant - like those awful dialogue-less movies about cavemen except even worse, cos the protagonists wouldn't even have any independent momentum - they'd just shuffle around randomly groaning and looking for stuff to eat for 200 odd pages, without achieving anything, and they wouldn't even have names or any individual characteristcs at all..

It could make quite a nice misanthropic comment about the pointlessness of regular human narratives.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
16:48 / 10.02.03
For some reason I read "randomly groaning" as "randomly grooming" and had a very weird mental image of a bunch of zombies picking fleas out of each others' hair or sitting in huddled groups like great apes, stroking each other.

Which would also be quite good in a book.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:03 / 10.02.03
Suggling together, picking the maggots out of each other's nostrils...
 
 
The Apple-Picker
20:14 / 10.02.03
I think transcribing real conversations is a good exercise but certainly not a model for the dialogue you want to create. My opinion is: get some instructional playwriting books. Learn how to write dialogue from those. My prose aesthetic dictates that you don't have unneccessary dialogue (they way real live human conversations do), and in my experience, playwriting has helped with that.

I'm still a mediocre playwright, but my dialogue has improved.
 
  
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