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Underground > Radio & Music >

Pop-musicians and their relation to the occult

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captain yossarian

22:13 / 04.02.03

i found an interesting and long article about david bowie´s occult background.
i uploaded it to my website where you can download it:
here

The Return Of Rothkoid

23:16 / 04.02.03

Um, without being snarky, could you please post a bit of the thing here? So we can see what sort of thing you're on about. People can get suspicious of things that exist solely in zipfiles...

00:41 / 05.02.03

A link to the original site is here.

captain yossarian

02:25 / 05.02.03

7redblurs,
thanks for posting the link... i lost it somewhere inside my 100gb harddrive.

The Return Of Rothkoid

04:08 / 05.02.03

A taster:

So what has David Bowie got to do with occultism? He gave the answer himself in his 1971 song 'Quicksand':

I'm closer to the Golden Dawn
Immersed in Crowley's uniform of imagery

In the 1976 song 'Station to Station' he mentioned the occult key doors to other plans of reality when he described how to travel down the Cabalistic Tree of Life

from Kether to Malkuth

that is from Godhead to Earth.
On 25 November, 1995, he finally admitted that in 1976 "My overriding interest was in cabbala and Crowleyism. That whole dark and rather fearsome never-world of the wrong side of the brain. ... More recently, [1995] I've been interested in the Gnostics".

I guess the question here is, is this much more than "a uniform of imagery", in perhaps a non-Crowleyan sense? Is there really much occultism in the work of the former Mr Jones, or is this like the people who claim Morrissey predicted Diana's death through his lyrics? I guess I'm wondering whether there are legitimate magickal overtones here - or in other artists? - or whether they're Marilyn Manson-like adoption and utility of forms/fear/the unknown? Certainly, Bowie's chameleon-like nature (god, rock hack 101 for me) would indicate that he's not averse to taking bits and pieces to present the way he wants to; sexuality, fashion, music - but does any of it stick? And is he alone in this?

What do you think?

04:14 / 05.02.03

No problem. It’s pretty fascinating stuff. I first read a version of this about 5 years ago, it's been interesting to see the updates as time goes by.

excerpt:

Tarot card Album
0 THE FOOL ------------ David Bowie (67) ...and/or the unreleased "Toy"
1 THE MAGICIAN -------- Space Oddity (69)
2 THE HIGH PRIESTESS -- The Man who sold the World (70)
3 THE EMPERATRICE ----- Hunky Dory (71)
4 THE EMPEROR --------- Ziggy Stardust (72)
5 THE HYEROPHANT ------ Aladdin Sane (73)
6 THE LOVERS ---------- Pinups (73)
7 THE CHARIOT --------- Diamond Dogs (74)
8 JUSTICE ------------- Young Americans (75)
9 THE HERMIT ---------- Station to Station (76)
10 FORTUNE ------------- Low (77)
11 STRENGTH ------------ Heroes (77)
12 THE HANGED MAN ------ Lodger (79)
13 DEATH --------------- Scary Monsters (and Super Creeps) (80)
14 TEMPERANCE ---------- Let´s Dance (83)
15 THE DEVIL ----------- Tonight (84)
16 THE TOWER ----------- Never let me down (87)
17 THE STAR ------------ Black Tie White Noise (93)
18 THE MOON ------------ Buddha of Suburbia (93)
19 THE SUN ------------- 1.Outside (95)
20 THE JUDGEMENT ------- Earthling (97)
21 THE WORLD ----------- Hours (99)
Heathen (02): Tarot Card contribution according to Aleister Crowley who altered the traditional numbering starting with the card 0. Thus, the phrase on the track "Sunday" (on 'Heathen'): "for in truth, it's the beginning of an end... and nothing has changed, everything has changed".

04:40 / 05.02.03

Those are some interesting questions Rothkoid.

If I had to guess, I’d say that Bowie is fascinated by different things all the time and just absorbs them and spits them out. As for any overt occult purpose, I wouldn’t put it past Bowie to try it.

In a certain sense, it doesn’t matter because those magickal things are there. Whether Bowie put them there, or we are just seeing them. I guess it depends on whether your definition of “legitimate magickal overtones” hinges on whether or not the artist intended them in the first place.

As a kid I was fascinated by various Rock=Occult books that different religious organizations would put out. With those books it’s obvious that what the author see, the author gets. I think that’s the case with much of the Bowie article.

Personally, I think Station to Station had an overt purpose. Besides the obvious symbolism in the lyrics and the cover art, it’s just a feeling I get off the album whenever I listen to it, from the age of 8 to now. But that’s probably just me.

09:58 / 05.02.03

So where does Tin Machine fit into this grand unified scheme, then, eh? EH?

captain yossarian

10:34 / 05.02.03

oh, well, tin machine...
baby universe may be interesting...

but: it is also magick that you are free to manipulate and overrun any system-fortress. so why shouldn´t bowie?
and i also think that bowie is more intuitively involved in occultism in the meantime than he was in his youth. it´s like a latent working disease. i know this fascinating "plague" for i feel it in my own work. no matter what i create or if i think about "deeper" coincidences... it´s always a little bit of magick in it.
the more authentic you are able to live the less art- or magick-attitudes you need. for it´s all inside your everyday-life. that´s one of the most satisfying events life can offer if you try to do your will.

captain yossarian

10:40 / 05.02.03

dear return-of-rothkoid

the journey "from kether to malkuth" is also described very interesting in the movie "the man who fell to earth" by nicholas roeg. if anybody hasn´t seen this film yet he should do it NOW. it´ll be one of the most fascinating films you´ve ever seen if you are able to see details. and: surprising... bowie DID act good here... most of "his" other films are complete shit.

12:48 / 05.02.03

This all puts me in mind of my past revelation about Paul Weller's role as Dark Magus of the Apocalypse..

I mean, seriously, occult symbolism is so vast, vague, openended and universal I'm sure you could piece together magickal messages within the work of just about any prolific song writer..

captain yossarian

15:05 / 05.02.03

whoa, rizla, yeah:

that´s the truth. but it´s also very shallow, as truth always appears.
but what´s with musicians who are definitevely members of occult groups as OTO, like... surprise: bowie!? they ARE in contact with their subconscious mind by will, not by incident. but you´re right: it´s not necessary as long as they write lovely little songs for our car-hifi-stereo-player.

ONLY NICE THINGS

16:29 / 05.02.03

Obviosuly, Bowie's relationship with Magickal practice was made manifest in "Labyrinth". Although he could not master the "contact juggling" that was done by a hand double, he *did* do everything else, including the creation of the Goblin City and its denizens, the reordering of time and the creation of Jennifer Connelly's wardrobe. The savings resulting from this, along with a cult following and strong video and DVD sales, have made Labyrinth far more profitable over the long term than was first expected.

16:49 / 05.02.03

And the gnome, of course, is a sort of earth elemental spirit—but why is it laughing? And why can it not be caught?

ONLY NICE THINGS

17:02 / 05.02.03

Well, because it's Trickster, of course. or possibly Tefe. Always get them mixed up.

On the same note,Crispian Mills of course also flirted with a) occultism and b) being the biggest twatstick in the history of creation....

17:12 / 05.02.03

Ah, yes, the whole "Hitler had some interesting ideas" thing, yeah?

Bowie made a show of flirting with fascism, too, didn't he...

Did Crispian Mills also spend the better part of a decade ripped to the tits on fine Bolivian marching powder?

Regrettable Juvenilia

19:53 / 05.02.03

No, but he did explain his dislike for hip-hop thus: "I'm not a black bitch." Seriously. NME singles guest-review.

The Return Of Rothkoid

21:16 / 05.02.03

Obviosuly, Bowie's relationship with Magickal practice was made manifest in "Labyrinth".

Haus! Mention not The Area!

I was kinda hoping there'd be a bit more discussion about convenient exploitation of a system of symbols for freakiness content as opposed to "but he is a magus!". Maybe he is; but certainly, given his career and the outlandishness that others came out with in order to keep up/surpass the Thin White Dad, wouldn't marketing and PR be more important?

Incidentally, I have seen The Man Who Fell To Earth, though I remember being more impressed with Roeg's visuals than Bowie's acting. The book was more moving, I thought.

22:51 / 05.02.03

So, who are some artist making music with a specific Magickal intent?

Specifically, recording artist who actually have albums for sale.

The Return Of Rothkoid

23:12 / 05.02.03

I was hoping you'd tell me.

From what I've heard/read, Tool's stuff (shut up, Flyboy) is supposed to be grounded in magick. But as I say, I wonder how much of that is like Danzig's whole short dark lord act; just an act, designed to fulfil expectations of edginess from idols that their audience may have.

I've also heard that Coil are very much into magick and soundtracking it, but again, am reliant on third-hand info on this. There are bound to be others; I'm just wondering how much is legit and how much is sparkle-shiny, add-some-darkness-to-my-promo-photo stuff?

Jack: you're right. Nazi salutes at railway stations after you've ingested half of South America's finest exports are probably not a good idea...

00:28 / 06.02.03

Actually TOOL and COIL are the only things that pop into my mind as well.

I don't know about the rest of the band, but I know TOOL's drummer uses the Kabbalah in laying out drum patterns. He also has an interesting website that goes a little beyond the regular trappings of the band, though it's somewhat new and not fully online yet. I think the official tool site is run by an occultist. Members of the band and affiliates also collect and sell a number of occult books.

I've heard from a friend that Coil does a lot of magickal work within it's music and a lot of brainwave mucking about with tonal patterns. But I haven't listened to much of Coil. There's a thread here too.

David J. of Bauhaus and Love and Rockets is involved in the occult and has done some things with Alan Moore.

Kula Shaker also apparently used magick in their music, but Mills is a prick, so they don’t count.

But I've really no idea how incorporated magick is in the music of these artists.

04:16 / 06.02.03

There's always Jimmy Page and Led Zepplin. I've never delved into the musical connections, but the man definitely has an interest in the occult. And he bought Aleister Crowley's house.

08:33 / 06.02.03

Tools CD lateralus has some titles in enochian. And has very occult themes throughout.

Coil is HUGELY occult influenced. Scatology (their first album) is all about Alchemy, on the surface about turning shit into gold, but within the lyrics about the transmutation of ... I think.... anything to gold. Very interesting stuff. I recommend anyone go out and buy their cd's. They also did the original soundtrack to Hellraiser, but apparently it wasn't used cos Clive Barker thought it was too scary!

I use coil's Unnatural History album, as background music when I'm doing anything occulty. Its excellent mood music, if nothing else.

But as I say, I wonder how much of that is like Danzig's whole short dark lord act; just an act, designed to fulfil expectations of edginess from idols that their audience may have.

well as the image is all you have, you have to take it as truth, unless proven otherwise. Its not like anyone knows Tool or Bowie personally, and can vouch for them is it?

Tool specifically, are heavily into occult imagery and lyrics, so I would say they are, at the very least, influenced by the occult.

08:55 / 06.02.03

Dr Octagon (Kool Keith)'s "Dr Octagonecologyst" is heavily voodoo flavoured.

Black Lung's "The Wonderful and Frightening World of Black Lung" has a song on it called "The Invisible College". But theres nothing other than that to tie it to the occult, so I don't know why I'm mentioning it.

nevermind

12:49 / 06.02.03

Kula Shaker also apparently used magick in their music, but Mills is a prick, so they don’t count.

What a very interesting statement. Are occultists only "real" occultists if you like their music and/or personalities?

At the risk of bringing Godwin's Law crashing down upon me: it's well-known that Hitler was interested in the occult. When rattling off a list of public figures interested in magick, does he not "count"?

Funny that I hardly ever hear his name on those lists of famous vegetarians, either.

14:14 / 06.02.03

The Rolling Stones supposedly went therough a phase of hanging out with Kenneth Anger and taking part in some Luciferian fooling around, didn't they?

Of course, I'm not sure if this manifested itself in their music, beyond Mick prancing 'round in a cape singing Sympathy for the Devil. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I remember reading something once about how Exile on Main Street is supposed to have sinister occult overtones, but I don't see it myself..

17:19 / 06.02.03

heh, Jack Fear it was a joke, based on what was said before.

17:42 / 06.02.03

A joke, yeah--but it's true that almost any movement or organization is going to have some less-than-exemplary human beings in its rolls, those we'd prefer to forget: I mean, Torquemada isn't going to make any "official" list of Great Catholics in History, but his impact on the faith in Spain, and the reputation of the Church for centuries to follow, is undeniable...

21:59 / 06.02.03

Jack Fear you've got a point there. It reminded me of at least one person whose music I don't like and who is in the occult, the lead singer of Godsmack. He is a Wiccan I believe. Also I think Stevie Nicks is a Wiccan too.

I still can’t think of anyone who openly uses the actual music as a magickal working. Except maybe coil, who I haven’t listened to.

I know Screaming Jay hawkins claimed to be possessed when he performed "I put a spell on you".

The Return Of Rothkoid

22:49 / 06.02.03

I still can’t think of anyone who openly uses the actual music as a magickal working. Except maybe coil, who I haven’t listened to.

Which is why I wonder if this whole idea of mapping Bowie's output to particular tarot values is a bit misguided, or is a bit of wishful thinking on the part of some fans? Is it nothing but wishful thinking based on a couple of throwaway interview lines and lyrical interpretations? (Perhaps made all the more spurious when you remember that Bowie used cut-ups a lot in his work...)

Again, I wonder about the whole "magickal appearance to ring down the curtain of mystery" approach; metal uses it a bit (or perhaps that's just the aura of Evil(tm)) and other artists do too. How important is actual usage in this incidence?

I've no doubt that Screaming Jay went into some kind of trance when playing - performers often do. But I just wonder whether a bloke who's known for "Constipation Blues" would be the first port o' call for any visiting godhead...

captain yossarian

00:58 / 07.02.03

remember the very strange "phantom in paradise" - film-musical, with music written by and participation of paul williams? a little bit of faust-stuff...

captain yossarian

00:59 / 07.02.03

and remember the fabulous maya deren? (watch her life in "the mirror of maya deren"). some voodoo, some japanese rituals etc.

The Return Of Rothkoid

02:51 / 07.02.03

See, I wouldn't have classed Maya Deren as a muso. I thought she was a filmmaker/ethnographer.

John Zorn has recently released a disc called IAO that purports to be influenced by magick. There's a ritual track or two on there, too.

As far as I remember, also, The Phantom Of The Paradise was more a DePalma-helmed camping-up of The Phantom Of The Opera more than anything else; I certainly don't recall much that was overtly Faustian about it.

07:58 / 07.02.03

Julian Cope should probably get a mention, particularly if we're extending this to include paganism. I saw him play a couple of years back where he attempted to lead the audience of the Royal Festival Hall on an astral journey to Silbury Hill. Coil played their 'Time Machines' set on that night as well actually, dressed up in weird robes and pissing about with obsidian mirrors as part of an on-stage ritual. I think 'Time Machines' is supposed to be music to assist in strange occult time travelling rites, or something.

I'm surprised that Psychic TV / Throbbing Gristle haven't been mentioned yet, as the whole TOPY thing is very much tied up with chaos magick, and there's several goth/industrial type bands whose music, predictably, has a high level of occult content. Current 93 is the only one that springs to mind at the moment.

Not that I'd actually consider listening to any of that shit when I'm doing magic myself mind you, it's got to be Marvin Gaye or Prince Buster if I want to get the sorcery working good.

08:13 / 07.02.03

Dr Octagon (Kool Keith)'s "Dr Octagonecologyst" is heavily voodoo flavoured.

Except that it isn't. It's an interesting album, and there's some vaguely magicky concepts and ideas floating about in it, but there's not really any reference to Voodoo or African Diaspora religions in any of the lyrics. I'd say it's more like Burrough's 'Dr Benway' character recording a hip hop CD. Which is good in itself.

If you're looking for Voodoo based music, there's a CD available on amazon (which I was switched on to by reading someones post in this forum awhile back, thanks, whoever that was) called 'Shango, Obeah, Shouter: Supernatural Calypso from Trinidad', which is very good indeed. Also worth listening to some of the early blues stuff for Hoodoo/Southern folk magic stuff, Robert Johnson and people from that era. The 'Anthology of American Folk Music' has got a lot of this kind of thing on it, and is also well reccomended just for the sake of it, as it's like discovering music from a forgotten alien world. On the jazz side of things, it's worth looking into Sun Ra - which, aside from being mad as fuck, seems to have a lot of weird magicky stuff going on behind the scenes. I think Sun Ra was connected in some way to the Moorish Orthodox Science Church, but I'm not sure on the details.

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