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Banish? Like, why?

  
 
Bill Posters
14:32 / 01.02.03
After all, I do not 'banish' my friends at the end of an eveing spent with them, I offer them the spare bed. Why would I do anything different with a Godform?

But Chris23, on the Careful with Chaos thread, says:

I also note in retrospect that I didn't banish at the end of the ritual - Big Mistake.

Hmm... in this case, I agree (given what happened) that it was a mistake. But is it always asking for trouble to not banish? Are we who don't always banish mad already, soon to be mad, or onto a great new way of working 'full time' (rather than just in 'ritual time') with deities, spirits, energies, call 'em what you will?
 
 
Papess
15:08 / 01.02.03
I would like to make a distinction in the difference between banishing at the and of rituals and doing an LBRP. I use these differently, as one would imagine. LBRP's being useful in the way of banishing discursive or obsessive thought (-forms).

When banishing at the end of a ritual, I think it depends on the entity. After all, we do invite these beings/forces in like houseguests, but different houseguests, I have different rules for. Like a junkie friend, he can come by but no using in my home. He is not allowed into my kitchen drawers either, but I won't get into why. His energy is erratic, so I regulate my exposure to him.

There are deities I work with, that I cannot banish because I do so much work with them. They may come and go as they please and they do, fine by me. Others, especially impersonal forces, I like to confine to a working and not let them meander into the rest of my affairs, thus a banishing is in order.

Sometimes the way I ask the entity/force to leave depends on it's nature. After all, I wouldn't ask a Clingon anything in a timid voice, would you? Be fierce with the fierce, and gentle with the timid. Species-culture thing.
 
 
LVX23
23:27 / 01.02.03
I see banishing as establishing space, clearing interference, and closing the working. I think Crowley describes it as creating your magickal sphere, bringing in the current while casting asdie all other influences and preoccupations, calming your routine thoughts and stepping into the guise of the magus. It is a focus of intent re-enforce by the theatrics. Closing the ritual with a banishing does the same, confining the influences and evocations to a single locus in spacetime instead of letting them loose upon the world. He also suggests that the second banishing keeps other forces from impacting the psychic space you've created in the ritual, reducing the possible errors in the post-ritual interpretation of your success.

This is a fairly traditional approach. As May noted, it may be more useful for a working to be open-ended. I think this is more of a shamanic approach where the magus walks among the world with Hir creations, as it were. Personally, for invocations of more powerful forces (like my Chaosphere experience)I think it is smart to banish, simply for the sake of sanity. Put the genie back in the box, as it were.
 
 
cusm
02:02 / 02.02.03
A polite banishing wikkany folks I work with sometimes use is "go if you must, stay if you will." Its used at the end of ceremonies when addressing the entities called for dismissal, but leaves the door open should they wish to remain while still offering a ritual sense of closure to the working. You may find that approach useful if you don't like the more forceful aproach. Its a nice middle ground.
 
 
Bill Posters
10:57 / 02.02.03
Mm, thanx, I agree with all those points above.

On a personal note, I have never had a problem with not banishing even after possession rituals, though I did once 'go all kooky' after one such rite; I recall behaving rather violently towards a relatively innocent railway station.* However, nothing came of it, nothing was damaged, and anyway, what could the police have done? Busted me for possession? I have witnessed one similar situation when an Odin possessee couldn't quite shake Old One Eye off and got a little aggressive also. It happens, I guess, though of course in the case of some deities, it could be very troublesome.

I guess context is all.

*I should say though that having got drunk after the rite it could easily have been the more common kind of booze-inspired stupidity... I can't really 'isolate my variables' here.
 
 
penitentvandal
14:41 / 02.02.03
Phil Hine talks of banishing as a way of creating a 'free area': a space where the agreed rules do not apply.

I have a theory - and some practical experience suggestive of the possibility - that as one gets better at magick, it becomes less necessary to banish all the time. You wouldn't need to banish before a common-or-garden enchantment, for example. But you'd still need to banish before or after dealing with anything too powerful. Like any other skill, the opening protective exercises taught to the novice are always reliable, but not always necessary to the more experienced practitioner.
 
 
Stone Mirror
14:53 / 02.02.03
In chapter 17 ("Of the License to Depart") of Magick in Theory and Practice, Crowley writes

After a ceremony has reached its climax, anti-climax must inevitably follow. But if the ceremony has been successful, this anti-climax is merely formal. The Magician should rest permanently on the higher plane to which he has aspired. The whole force of the operation should be absorbed; [NB: Emphasis Crowley's] but there is almost certain to be a residuum, since no operation is perfect; and (even if it were so) there would be a number of things, sympathetic to the operation, attracted to the Circle. These must be duly dispersed, or they will degenerate and become evil. It is always easy to do this where invocations are concerned; the mere removal of the strain imposed by the will of the magician will restore things to their normal aspects, in accordance with the great law of inertia. In a badly-managed evocation, however, this does not always obtain; the spirit may refuse to be controlled, and may refuse to depart--even after havin sworn obedience. In such a case extreme danger may arise.
 
 
Stone Mirror
14:57 / 02.02.03
The trivial (and, I thought, obvious) answer to Bill's initial question is "Because Godforms are not your friends." You treat them as "chums" at your peril.
 
 
illmatic
09:48 / 03.02.03
I think this is an interesting question. Banishing/closing is one of the "rules" of magick that is usually taken for granted, and I guess as your experiment more, you may find instances when a thorough banishing would be counter-productive - some instances of invocation for instance.

Having said that I almost invariably do so - not to do so just wouldn't feel "right", it wouldn't have the same sense of closure that I associate with a completed act. Magick gets compared to theatre sometimes - not banishing would feel to me as if in the middle of a play, the actors put on their coats and exited the theatre from the stage front. To extend the analogy, some theatre groups try and break down the audience/actor barrier, this may be an interesting experiment but I'm not sure if I'd want to deal with the consequences of this all the time. It might teach you a think or two about the power of magick, I suppose.

Something I do occasionally is fast for the day or the evening, and cook a meal of favourite foods after I've finished - it feels like I'm sealing things in/grounding them as I eat.
 
 
Papess
10:00 / 03.02.03
Something I do occasionally is fast for the day or the evening, and cook a meal of favourite foods after I've finished - it feels like I'm sealing things in/grounding them as I eat.

Hmm.... much like ganachakra, Illmatic?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:30 / 03.02.03
I think the issues around this are more complex than 'to banish or not to banish', and how you best approach matters is dependent on what it is you're actually doing. I don't really go for the 'one size fits all' approach to banishing myself, and tend to find that different situations call for different approaches.

I can think of a lot of circumstances where closing with an LBRP style banishing is just plain innapropriate. For example, if you're working with entities from a paradigm that doesn't recognise it, they may take offense, wonder what you're playing at, etc.. all of which could be deterimental to your intended outcome. Similarly, if your working involves accessing some state of 'communion' with an entity or force, then coming out of that via a powerful banishing ritual might feel a bit like throwing a bucket of ice water over yourself following a deep sleep. Very effective, but not always the most appropriate response to the situation.

This is not to say that you ought to just wander off, like the hypothetical actors grabbing their coats mid-performance, but there's numerous ways of winding up a ritual without resorting to something as abrupt as a formal banishing. To re-use the metaphor of inviting people over to your flat, you wouldn't banish them outright at the end of the night, but you might employ a few polite signifiers such as offering people cups of tea, making sure they know what time the last train runs, etc.. and the trick is probably to develop a few magickal equivalents.

On the other hand, there's probably entities who are fine with the LBRP as a close off at the end of the night. I suppose if you're going for something with a ceremonial flavour, then a ceremonial banishing would probably flow naturally out of it. Learning how best to respond during ritual is part of learning and developing as a magician. You can't learn it from a book as what's right for one person may be completely off the mark for another, and if your magic is a living process rather than a dead tradition, then what's right for you is likely to be constantly changing anyway.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:39 / 03.02.03
Further to that, I'd make a distinction between banishing prior to ritual and banishing afterwards. I generally find it useful to precede any heavy magickal work with some form of banishing, which might take the form of an LBRP type thing, or it could be something looser and more freestyle. I think it's comparable to doing warm ups before martial arts sparring, gets you closer to the right mind set and helps you put aside the other business of the day to focus on the work at hand.
 
 
illmatic
14:06 / 03.02.03
Hmm.... much like ganachakra, Illmatic?

Not sure if I get the reference May. You don't mean the Kalchakra, do you?

Thought I'd add that in parts of the tantric traditon(s), one of the eight directions (NE)is attributed to the Goddess of leftovers anyway. Offering her any ritual remenenants and consuming other offerings as sacraments can be a nice way of coming out of the ritual headspace.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:45 / 02.09.05
Bumping this because I'm having some doubts as to whether I'm going about things correctly these days.

I'm experiencing a sort of merging of my magical and "normal" (for want of a better word, ect ect chiz moan drone). It's not exactly a problem, but it gets a little heavy at times.

The way I'm working these days, for the most part, is to spend at least little time each day at one or other of my permenant altars. I'll prepare first by washing in cold water to get into the ritual headspace, then maybe just light a candle and burn a little incense or set someone up with a fresh libation if they want. Sometimes I'll leave the candle burning for just a few minutes; other times, it'll stay lit for some hours and I'll visit the altar now and again throughout that time. I'll also take offerings to various places out in the open where appropriate.

Every week or so I perform a more formal service at a temporary altar. This will be quite an intensive thing, often going on for some hours, with offerings, chanting, clapping, drumming, dancing, crafting or consecrating of certain items--the full wax. The main goal of these workings is to open a door for the being concerned to enter and communicate with me.

I'll gear up for these by washing and probably changing clothes. I'll clense the ritual area, smudge with sage, wave my smashy hammer around a bit. I'll close by asking if there's anything else that wants doing, then thanking the God/dess for being with me and bidding Him or Her a polite farewell. I'll then go round extinguishing the candles, covering the offering bowl, putting away the ritual items ect.

Then I'll go and take another shower, change again, and go and do something "normal" like watch telly or do the washing up. I'll take steps to distinguish ritual/religious/magical consciousness from normal consciousness, but "Banishing" in the LBRP-style sense... mm, nah. Feels wrong. Apart from seeming rude and totally obnoxious, the whole idea just feels alien.

But I seem to get a lot of hangovers from my blots, and I don't just mean from the libations. I find myself drifting spontaneously into a way of being that I'd previously have characterised as "magical." I get a lot of spirity-contacty flavour stuff: physical sensations (eg. a hand on my shoulder, feeling hot or cold for no reason, heat or cold in my hands ect), feeling like there's someone in the room with me, energy rushes that leave me sort of blissed-out, that kind of thing. This can all get pretty intense and distracting at times. Although I wouldn't say it's having an overall negative effect on my wellbeing, I'm sort of concerned and intimidated by the frequency and intensity of some of the stuff that's happening.

Should I be putting my foot down a bit harder? Or is this all a normal part of the process? I'm a bit new at the whole direct spirit contact thing still.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:52 / 02.09.05
I think it's pretty normal, you're doing a lot, a full on ritual once a week and daily observance at an altar over a long period of time is a lot and it sounds like what you've done is actually consecrated and thus opened up your entire living space and your body to this. Off the top of my head I only see two solutions, accept things as they are and recognise that your home has become a friendly space for these things or try to draw lines in your home where this is welcome. I'm not sure how you would do that because you're working in a tradition that I'm not really involved with, I'd just ask them not to touch me on the shoulder again (as in speak casually when touched on the shoulder) and probably literally draw lines on the floor but it's something to think about certainly.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:53 / 02.09.05
See, that all sounds reasonable, but I'm not sure it's what needs to be done.

Whilst I'm concerned about going totally off the deep end and becoming one of those dribbling wankomancers who does nothing except sit around and talk to hir imaginary friends, I'm also not keen on shutting off contact when that contact is necessary and important.

There's a sense that I'm sort of stuck halfway, as if communication is starting to happen but I'm not properly set up to recieve it yet.

I'm not sure if I need to push back when they get pushy, draw lines (literal and figurative) or whether I need to adopt a different, more accepting approach--learn to come to terms with the fact that yes, this stuff will be happening a lot more now, and find some way of working with this new mode of being such that it doesn't overwhelm me.
 
 
Unconditional Love
22:20 / 02.09.05
As a wankomancer, well for the time being, job starting soon, i assure you it becomes easier the more you let it happen, wouldnt advise making it public thou, ie talking to them in public spaces, thou i get contact in all sorts of spaces and in all sorts of ways, the danger is overreaction and paranoia.

Your probably correct in needing to create a working relationship rather than becoming a walk in spirt drum, thou i guess that depends on what your willing or able to handle.

Your very lucky to have a mythology with spirits you can relate too, i tend to characterise them by tone of voice and suggestion which helps, but doesnt give me any coat hangers to hang them from. do you ever gets masses, crowds, as if your perception is inclusive of all the minds in your city/town? again startling at first but you slowly become accustomed to the chaotic noise, acts of concentration tend to switch the mode of perception, like watching telly as you mentioned, i tend to use music but this isnt always effective, even the space between tracks become an oppertunity for somebody to get a word in edge ways. I often wonder are these spirits, god/esses, echoes of previous reincarnations, voices of the dead, multiple selves communicating with each other via unified field of telepathy, was doing all that acid every weekend really a good idea? or am i just mad? well as someone who has explored the mental health industry and is just starting explorations from the otherside, i have to say i dont think its insanity, since what i am told when i dont ignore it or deny it tends to help me greatly, fighting it i think caused a majority of my problems.

another option i am finding is to attempt to develope a more rational logical persona to counter balance what can often be a totally intuitive me walking about jumping from one voice to the next.

also something i find useful from israel regardie is his metaphor of a wild horse in a pen and watching it from the outside, a bit like descriptions of the monkey mind in buddhism, bringing myself to awareness and being here and now, deep breathing, meditation in the sense of self aware concentration.

physical exercise is also very good, providing a very real sense of the body locating the mind in the flesh, its very easy to be guided into the spirit by things as i became more open, luckily somebody introduced me to my body again, this helped me a great deal, the body becomes a point of focus to ground you in the flesh, this could be gentle or vigourous.

sex is great at that as well solo or otherwise, giving an even greater sense of body grounding after orgasm.

another would be a huge meal that fills the stomach creating a definite heaviness inside, not so great if you dont want weight gain.

i use a combination of things to ground me depending on the mood.
 
 
Quantum
10:11 / 03.09.05
Not much danger of a descent into dribbling wankomancy for you Mordant (although it did make me laugh, reminded me of 'Magicians these days are all about sigils, stubble and self abuse, in the 20s we had style darling!' from Promethea) but a point well made. Is that person on a hands free kit or just mumbling to themselves and their demons?
This is a tricky issue for physical people too, I've had housepests I was too polite to eject, and they didn't have godlike powers.
 
 
Unconditional Love
17:46 / 03.09.05
you know whats worse than a wankomancer? a life style magician, cause all that magic goes well with the self image.
 
 
Unconditional Love
18:49 / 03.09.05
They have these nice little altars that look like new age shop displays, unconsciously they imitate where they have bought all there bits and bobs from. there books are also sectioned into catagories like enochian books there dooreen virtue books next to them, cause shes a modern dee obviously. there pride and joy is angel cats which they read to there pussys.

but seriously theres a place for everybody, born again wankers like me, and witches with ikea wands, ballroom dancing with sigils on ya shoes you name it.

and quantum i like my all dressed in black stubbly chin dripping with sperm and feces wedged between my teeth.

thou i am guessing that image wont go down to well for work, a nice goatee and black shirts and trousers, no coil t shirts, must remember to wash my hands first thing in the morning, must be clean and purified, cant be dirty at work, no jacking off in the toilets and talking to demons.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:38 / 03.09.05
*Gazes bleakly at shelves groaning under the weight of David Gemmel and circuit analysis* Angel Cats would actually increase my mage cred, I think. All my magic books are on the hard-drive in PDF or hidden in the wardrobe.

At least part of my problem is that my current magic lifestyle really does not go with my stuff. I don't identify as the talk-to-Gods sort of person at all.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:45 / 03.09.05
(Right, sorry, self indulgent threadrot.) Meanwhile, back at the ranch: How would one distinguish between banishing in the loosest sense, and 'grounding' or 'centering'? I mean, I've seen people refer to going and doing a spot of gardening as 'banishing', whereas I'd call that grounding. I guess what I do nowadays falls more under the broad definition of grounding, in that I'm not actually telling anyone to bugger off--I'm just trying to get my own feet on solid ground.
 
 
Unconditional Love
19:55 / 03.09.05
being honest to begin with all of mine was a life style choice, it was part of my self image as a teen and during my early twenties, it kinda all went with the drugs i was taking at the time and the company i kept.

Hit me with a nde at 28 thou and it all goes, oh so its not just bullshit, theres actually something in all of this. set up an altar and its like tuning in a radio they come.

its very weird part of me just wants it too be all bullshit so i can go back to blagging it for a shag or a smoke. and the another part is please fuck take it all away and another is like bring it on,but where do i fit?
after 6 years its still very very confusing.

you know a weird kind of banishing is happening on this thread.
 
 
Charlie's Horse
20:57 / 03.09.05
I don't identify as the talk-to-Gods sort of person at all.

Do you think such an identification would help you keep yourself balanced through all this? Why do you feel that you aren't this sort of person? It just seems like part of the problem might come from the friction between this bit o self-concept you've mentioned, and what's really going on. Not that this particular issue seems as big as the whole 'balancing between the Divine and this world' issue, but it certainly seems pertinent.

As far as grounding work goes, you might want to try something a bit more physical than the examples you gave, Mordant. Something that's rather strenuous, that actually pushes your mind past the point of yabbering on at itself about what just happened. Run, do some lunges, dance around to some good music, take a brisk walk, that sorta thing. Get back into your own skin so hard it hurts. I can't imagine that watching a little TV would really have the same effect - if anything, that feels like the opposite of both banishing and centering to me. I get done with that and feel more loopy than before. Not that this was your sole recourse in the post-worship list of things to do, but what you talked about sounded like the kinds of things that would let you stew over what you just did - most of the acts I'd call centering would involve wrenching myself into the present by virtue of their violent physicality. Running, jumping, singing, dancing about. Doesn't have to be a marathon - just enough to shake you up.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:19 / 03.09.05
See, I actually do a lot of physical stuff to ground me--going for long walks, swimming ect. However...

Many of my rites seem to involve me dancing like a very dancy thing, sometimes for a couple of hours or more at a time. Many of my contact episodes have involved me (for example) being woken up in the small hours of the morning and sent off on a hike. Maybe I've created an image of someone sitting lotus-style in front of a scented candle, but much of my contact manifests as a kind of temporary hyperactivity.

Trust me, sometimes all I'm good for is sticking my head under the cold tap and then flaking out in front of the telly.
 
 
Charlie's Horse
23:16 / 03.09.05
I gotcha - good to hear you've got that covered. Didn't mean to read the wrong words into your situation.

I like your banishing/grounding distinction. 'Banish' seems something you'd do to a servant, if you were a 19th century landed aristocrat. To me it implies a strange view towards what we do - that the energies we invite can just be turned off like a light switch and turned out like old furniture we don't need. Grounding, I'd say, acknowledges that what we're doing after a ritual isn't to drive the Gods away - how could we - but that we're hitting our own internal reset buttons. We don't ask them to leave - we're asking for their pardon to leave their home.

I hope your situation arrives at some kind of equillibrium, Mordant.
 
 
Char Aina
07:07 / 15.01.06
[threadrot]


Is that person on a hands free kit or just mumbling to themselves and their demons?

that would be great cover...


[/threadrot]
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:30 / 15.01.06
I believe cat yronwode does exactly that, toksik. I'm on the lookout for a cheap second-hand set myself. (Course, I could just build a dummy set out of spare parts, who'd know?)
 
 
Unconditional Love
11:07 / 15.01.06
The hearing voices network recommends that as a coping strategy, even if you use a fake childs one not many people look close enough to someone in public to notice the difference.
 
 
SteppersFan
10:12 / 16.01.06
You might not want to do a full "banishing" ritual as the culmination of a larger ritual, but you'll probably want to /ground/ the energy you've raised. Experience suggests you'll notice the difference if you dont -- headaches, feeling irritable, "bad luck" etc. If you're working with entities you'll probably want to say goodbye to them nicely as well or they might take offence.

A good way to ground your energy is to eat something. Hence the "cakes and wine" bit of wiccan and neo-pagan rituals, which usually comes before "banishing" of the quarters (i.e. ritualised packing up and saying goodbye).

Just common sense really. I mean, when you've finished cooking dinner, you turn the gas off... and when you've finished the meal, you do the washing up...
 
  
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