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The Great Hereafter: an Annotated Barbliography

 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:09 / 29.01.03
Or, I've just had a really great idea...

(Apologies for the title - bad punnage is terribly infectious in these parts)

I think this could be a good way of talking about books in this forum, and might take us away from the author/plot related stuff on which we have a tendency to concentrate. The idea is that the topic starter picks a theme or subject - in this case, representations of the great hereafter in literature - and then people can list books which include such representations and add notes on the representations. There's not much point if you don't add even brief notes - what I'm hoping is that as people add books to the thread, patterns and points of discussions will start to emerge in a fairly organic fashion. Anything is grist to this mill - so books I have thought of for this topic (but which I am not going to annotate myself) include:

His Dark Materials
The Divine Comedy
The Childermass
The Last Battle
The Odyssey
The Lovely Bones

... and there must be tons more out there.

I'm going to start with:

Ursula Le Guin's Earthsea sequence: A Wizard of Earthsea, The Tombs of Atuan, The Farthest Shore, Tehanu, and The Other Wind, all of which are utterly stonking. I think The Farthest Shore and The Other Wind are probably the most important for this discussion, though A Wizard of Earthsea has some very relevant bits in it too. But really I recommend that you read the whole lot...

MAJOR SPOILAGE FOR THE REST OF THIS POST, ESPECIALLY FOR THE OTHER WIND (as it's the newest)






I think Ursula Le Guin's conception of the afterlife is actually quite similar to Philip Pullman's in His Dark Materials, and I suspect that they both have their ultimate roots in the Greek idea of Hades (as in the Odyssey). In The Farthest Shore, when Sparrowhawk and Arren come to the land of the dead, they cross a dry brick wall and see on the other side semblances of people who once lived, but who now walk around unseeingly - with no emotion and no recognition of those they loved when they were alive. They are trapped in a sort of half-life - heartbreaking. When I have time I'll get my copy and type out the passage here - Le Guin has a beautiful spare style which makes this sort of thing terribly effective and affecting, I think.

The idea behind The Farthest Shore is that a mage called Cob is disrupting the borders between life and death by using the Pelnish Lore (a sort of magery which is, at this point, thought to be deviant by the mages of Roke) to keep himself 'alive' after his death, when he should be in the land of the dead, and that this is draining magic from the wizards of the Archipelago (Earthsea); Sparrowhawk and Arren cross the Mountains of Pain in order to defeat him on the dragons' island of Selidor, which costs Sparrowhark his own wizardry.

However, The Other Wind then addresses the question of the rightness of the land of the dead - why does it exist in that way in the first place? This is brought up by a wizard who is troubled by the dead in his dreams - by the dead trying to cross the wall, telling him of their misery at being stuck in limbo. Eventually it transpires that, long ago, humans and dragons made a decision that dragons would continue to 'be', to fly, and to use the old speech (I will check this), whereas men would keep the ability to perform wizardry, would not be able to fly. What this dissociation meant was that dragons retained the ability to just die, whereas men ended up in the limbo of the land of the dead. The wizards, Tenar and the Kargish princess, and the dragons Irian and Tehanu - all the peoples of Earthsea represented - destroy the divide by tearing down the wall of the land of the dead, and the dead walk across the divide and dissolve into the air. It's better in the book - that was a bit of a hamfisted explanation, and I should probably check it again. But it is really very powerful, I think.

Your turn!
 
 
grant
13:57 / 29.01.03
How would this relate to The Silmarillion (and, by extension, Lord of the Rings)? In Tolkien, there's death (and nobody knows what that is) and there's "the journey West," where those who can't die in the normal way go when their time comes.
It's not quite Valhalla, since there's this sort of conflation between the land (Valinor) and the Creator (Ea). Sometimes individuals come out of Valinor, as the elves & men & dwarves did in the beginning of time, or the Istari did later. But the best of those go back.
A bit like crossing the Celtic "Western Lands" with nirvana, in a way.
Think there's an element of Hades, there, too? It's definitely a place with a geographical location.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
18:33 / 29.01.03
I'd say Valinor relates more to Tir na n'Og (if that's how you spell it, I can't remember right now) or Hy Brasil, or even Avalon - lands which are generally inaccessible to mortals, but which are not places of the dead - an otherworldly realm, faery, rather than an afterlife per se - though of course the two are definitely connected, you only have to look at the Tam Lin stories and other folk tales to see that...
 
 
Mourne Kransky
19:03 / 30.01.03

Have taken the spoilers warning on board and denied myself a reading of this gorgeous thread because I finished Tehanu, having found each successive Earthsea book more beguiling than the last, and have yet to track down The Other Wind, which I presume comes next. Am I going to see Therru go to live with “her people”? At the moment I'm feasting on The Left Hand of Darkness so will return to Le Guin's Hell later, perhaps.

However, read lots of Dante as a boy, studying Italian. I had the Doré engravings in the first text I read and, wonderful as they are, I suspect they fixed my take on the imagery prematurely.

It’s a very concrete imaginary cosmogomy where the denizens of Hell are punished according to Dantean Divine Justice, the contrappasso idea matching the punishment suffered to the nature of the sinner’s faults, such as Paolo and Francesca, adulterous lovers in life led astray by literary fantasy (very Emma Bovary), now buffeted by an infernal, everlasting storm. As the sodomites walk in a trench of burning sand, gorgeous boys promenade just out of reach (or did my memory invent that detail?)

I like the idea that he populated Hell with the Florentines whom he blamed for his exile, the political enemies like Farinata and Dario Argenti. I’m a sucker for wish fuilfilment fairy tales and would love to rewrite it with some modern inhabitants like Gary Rhodes, being kebabbed by a salivating and demonic Nigella, or George Bush being devoured from the inside by pretzels with little rodent teeth. innercircle would be pursued relentlessly by a Greenlander with a megaphone… hehehe.

I think Judas is portrayed as leading the field in the anti-Christian traitor stakes, masticated eternally by one of Satan’s three great mouths, and that has always pissed me off. Throughout Christian literature there’s never a murmur of pity for the poor sod who was only doing his job in the egomaniacal narrative Jesus scripted. No Judas, no Resurrection after all – just two doddering old Palestinians reminiscing about their nights out with the lads in Jerusalem, as they fished and farmed by the Galilee and learned to crochet. The device of having Lucifer chomping perpetually on sinners does deny him any good lines too, which was a craven literary conceit IMHO. I like the image of the giant satanic bottom dangling out of a plughole at the very bottom of the underworld though.

He had a fair number of Popes in there which was brave for the early fourteenth century: Celestine, who abdicated and thus is sent to the burny fire (if I remember aright), and Boniface, not that unusual for your standard mediaeval Pope in confusing his spiritual pontificate with imperialist conquest and temporal power.

The story of Count Ugolino is probably my favourite, the most gruesome and most pitiable: gaoled by an Archbishop, along with his two young sons, and denied food, he cannibalises his sons to survive. In Hell he snacks on the Archbishop’s high protein, ever-regenerating head. Preferable to gnawing on his starved children, I’d have thought.

Given that there are so many JK Rowlingesque creatures of classical mythology in his Hell (centaurs, minotaur), even the River Styx for Charon to row him over on the way in, I also have a gripe about his abuse of Virgil. Born in pre-Christian times, Virgil can only go irredeemably to Hell, which sucks, frankly. Talk about Divine Justice – where’s the justice there? Dante gives Virgil a great deal of reverence for his mastery of the poetic muse but, at the end of the day, the author of The Aeneid must stand back and let a vapid non-entity and Barbie doll like Beatrice lead D.A. through Purgatory and into Paradise. All because he caught a glimpse of her on the Ponte Vecchio one day on her way back from church and she inflamed his ardour. Gah!

I would love to thrill you with some description of the glories of the prose but since I was in first year when I read it, dictionary ever to hand, I never really got much sense of the poetry beyond the first few beautiful stanze.

It is fairly clearly signposted that he’s going to Hell, tra la perduta gente, but he still trots merrily off into the dark wood. Why? It’s the Renaissance version of teen-splatter-horror when they always go down into the cellar, despite the storm outside and it’s Hallowe’en and they’re both attractive young things who’ve had sex recently. Arse…

Must be a good book though, The Inferno, for so much to have stuck in my senescent brain after nearly thirty years. I’ll go dig out Matt Groenig’s Life is Hell now for my next discourse…
 
 
Mourne Kransky
20:32 / 30.01.03
Couldn't help myself, just had to read through K-CC's spoiler for The Other Wind. Oh yes! Can't wait. But a full reading of the thread did cause me to ponder on other aspects of these afterlifes. Dante steals the classical Greek image of the River as boundary, which Pullman also uses. It has been reused in many other fictions too.

But Le Guin's boundary is a wall, reached via a bleak land in thickening fog is it not (like the Nordic Niflheim), which hearkens back to Dante's selva scura, a dark wood where the way is obscured (smarrita) and lost.

In Pullman's Land of the Dead there is a similar scene on arrival on the other bank of the river and a wall encloses the lost souls, gate guarded and inhabitants terrorised by the harpies.

The thing about Le Guin's wall is that it is somehow less set apart from the world of the living. The boundary seems clear but many refer to it and seem to have seen it, walked reight up to it, just haven't crossed over. See, they saw the signs and didn't go down into the creepy cellar.

& Le Guin's exit from Hell, the Mountain whose name is Pain, is a reversal of Dante's Mountain of Purgatory leading out of Inferno and up to Paradiso at the summit. It leads back to Life. I suppose Dante's leads to everlasting life, just damn few get to traverse it all the way.

Hadn't really seen these echoes contrasted one beside another before.

Dante's Hell is full of real people, though, just in altered circumstances. They are very much as they were, many even continuing to defy God (like the thief - Vanni? Something like that. He gives God the finger anyway.) There has been a change wrought in the inhabitants of Hell in most other descriptions, even those lost in Hell but still alive in the Pullman version, waiting for their "Death" to come to them.

Rambling here, loosely connecting. Time for bed (and another chaopter or two of Le Guin).
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
10:04 / 31.01.03
Brilliant responses there, Xoc - thank you!

Hadn't really seen these echoes contrasted one beside another before.

That's exactly what I wanted to happen...

Your mention of Pullman's harpies stirred something in the dark recesses of my atommick brane - I think there's something very like this in Diana Wynne Jones's Deep Secret (which is, of course, utterly fabulous): the part where Maree has to be rescued because a gateway to another world has been opened through her body involves something very like a journey through the underworld and trial with its guardians - will see if I can remember any more.

Oh, and that reminds me - Sabriel by Garth Nix, yet another really good YA fantasy book has a great deal of this...

SPOILERS FOR SABRIEL




Sabriel is the heir of the Abhorsen, whose task is to patrol the shores of Death and prevent the Dead coming back into Life, where they are demons and kill the living. There are a number of interstices with Life where it is reasonably easy for the powerful demons to get through, and at the start of the books the numbers of the Dead are increasing. There are nine gates in Death, and the further you go in, the harder it is to get back out; and the further a demon has been in, the more powerful it will be. The truly dead pass beyond the ninth gate and don't come back, but it's possible for the Abhorsen to rescue those stuck in the earlier gates; the Abhorsen uses a system of bells to calm and quell the demons, but there's always the possibility that the Abhorsen will get stuck in Death as well. What is also interesting is that, again, the gates of Death are marked by physical obstacles - rapids, a chasm, a gulf.

I think it's fascinating that so often the realm of Death is reached by physical obstacles - like mapping the journey through life to death on the landscape (brainmelt ensues as I start to consider the relation of the Resurrection and other renewal stories to natural cycles... where's The White Goddess when you need it?)
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
19:18 / 31.01.03
Am I allowed to be shallow and bring in comics depictions of the afterlife, like in Alan Moore's Swamp Thing, Neil Gaiman's Sandman and Garth Ennis' Preacher? Oh all right then.

There is of course, C.S. Lewis' 'Things to do in Narnia When You're Dead', also known as The Last Battle, where it's revealed that if you take the letters of NARNIA and rearrange them, then throw them away and get different ones they spell HEAVEN, unless you've ever put on lipstick, in which case you're going to Hell. Unsurprisingly Lewis' cosmology is a tad juvenile unless the cast of the last book that don't actually die to get into Heaven are actually supposed to be those lifted up by The Rapture or something.

Dying makes up a big part of Tolkien's work it would seem. Not surprising as his biography on the FotR DVD says his parents died when he was fairly young and he survived through the Great War only for all his friends to die too. And he does seem to subscribe to the 'death is like sleeping' maxim, most of his characters die relatively painlessly, except the bad ones. Theoden dies battling the Nazgul, gets to slip off relatively painlessly, Boromir tries to take the Ring, has to atone by being used as a pincushion. But the fact that Frodo can't stay any longer, in the end, everyone leaves you.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:06 / 04.02.03
There is of course, C.S. Lewis' 'Things to do in Narnia When You're Dead', also known as The Last Battle, where it's revealed that if you take the letters of NARNIA and rearrange them, then throw them away and get different ones they spell HEAVEN, unless you've ever put on lipstick, in which case you're going to Hell. Unsurprisingly Lewis' cosmology is a tad juvenile unless the cast of the last book that don't actually die to get into Heaven are actually supposed to be those lifted up by The Rapture or something.

Hee hee... actually I think that's precisely what happens; isn't the end of The Last Battle the Last Trumpet? Narnia is overwhelmed, isn't it? Except that it's maybe not quite as fundamentalist as that would suggest - there's the Calormene who gets in because he served Aslan thinking he was serving Tash, after all. Pfft - one measly Calormene does not a summer make...

On the Tolkien front - interesting perhaps that Aragorn seems to decide when he's going to die and then makes it so, and the elves and Frodo go to Valinor - perhaps it was the inability to decide when one goes which bothered him (would fit in with the war stuff). I suppose you'd have to read the Silmarillion to find out what Valinor is like (and the Silmarillion is so impenetrable that I really don't want to read it again).
 
 
grant
18:24 / 04.02.03
It gets easier the second time. And it does bring out the difference between Tir Na Nog and Valinor, in that Valinor is where life comes from. The Creator lives there.

---

Some of the most interesting stuff in comics lately (last 15 years or so) has been all those British dudes playing around with what it really means to have a character come back from the dead. Culminating in both God and Satan abdicating their thrones. (Preacher & Sandman).

Which is a little weird.

Meanwhile (more recently), Promethea is strolling up the tree of life to reunite her (dead) former self with her (dead) husband.
I'm still reading that bit of the series in the trade collection, so I don't know how it ends up.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
21:01 / 04.02.03
What about...


SPOILERS



The Third Policeman?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
22:21 / 04.02.03
Oh yes, definitely, thank you - do you fancy doing it? I read it yonks ago and my copy's in Southsea (I seem to be saying that a lot these days...).
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
23:14 / 04.02.03
Once I get unpacked - a couple of weeks? - I would like to, yes. D'y think it hangs in with Waiting For Godot as a portrait of afterlife-as-waiting-room?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:54 / 05.02.03
Sorry - didn't mean as a joint reading exercise, just as an addition to this thread (unless that's what you meant and you just want to refresh your memory?).

Can anyone think of any books where the afterlife is presented as an untroubled place? I am having trouble. Even archy and mehitabel:

oh by isis
and by osiris
says the princely raisin
and by pish and phthush and phthah
by the sacred book perembru
and all the gods
that rule from the upper
cataract of the nile
to the delta of the duodenum
i am dry
i am as dry
as the next morning mouth
of a dissipated desert
as dry as the hoofs
of the camels of timbuctoo
little fussy face
i am as dry as the heart
of a sand storm
at high noon in hell
i have been lying here
and there
for four thousand years
with silicon in my esophagus
as gravel in my gizzard
thinking
thinking
thinking
of beer
 
 
Persephone
11:50 / 05.02.03
At the end of Watership Down...

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

...Hazel gets to run with El-Ahrairah. "Running" being the word for alive, for rabbits.

On the other hand, there's Inlé... it's a frightful place, though I don't think it's exactly Rabbit Hell.
 
 
grant
21:04 / 05.02.03
I never finished The Third Policeman - the mysterious bureaucracy kept bugging me, though, I remember.

The weird, impenetrable legal system was coupled with (twinned by?) that sense of barely-understood machinery. Devices that seem familiar, but it obviously standing in for something else. Elevators, telephones, mysterious buttons, and the jive with bicycles.

----

OK, should I mention weirdness with ghosts? Because there's something *strange* going on with the Harry Potter books and the way they deal with an afterlife. Harry's dad keeps visiting him, and the school is riddled with roving undead - Moaning Myrtle being more of a troublesome figure than Nearly Headless Nick. But they're here, mostly, and not hereafter.

----

Oh, and there's a big deal about a distopian 'afterlife' in the second and third Barsoom books by Edgar Rice Burroughs.

SPOILERS


Turns out it's a sham run by the Black Martians to enslave the Red, Green and, yes, even the White Martians. Who otherwise live forever.
Very creepy reading it is, too - a religion that lies to an entire planet. And the idea of *eternal* slavery is just... no good. Unpleasant.
 
 
grant
17:57 / 17.02.03
Riverworld (and its many sequels) by Philip Jose Farmer.

In the first novel, at least, the hero is Richard Burton (I think - Samuel Clemens is also a main character in one of the books) who awakes after his death, briefly in an infinite void surrounded on all sides by numberless sleeping naked bodies (except one figure in a gleaming metal canoe), then on a large planet with a river running around its equator. He soon determines that every human being ever to have been born and died on Earth from prehistory up to the year 2000-some has been reborn in a new body on this planet. Populations are geographically isolated by obstacles - mountains, thickets, what have you - except for the river, which runs through all the little wedges. He and his intrepid band of adventurers (some historically notable, some not) travel from niche to niche, trying to figure out what's going on, who put them there, and what their purpose might have been. Since it's clearly not heaven. I think people who die/get killed on Riverworld come back in a new body the next day, but it's been over a decade since I've read any of the books, so I can't remember for sure.
The overall depiction is much closer to The Matrix than, say, Hades in The Odyssey, but there's definitely qualities of both afterlives in there.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
22:35 / 17.02.03
I'm not quite sure how it finishes (but should by the weekend) but Peter Carey's Bliss is about the afterlife-in-life, I suppose. Harry Joy has a heart-attack and is dead for nine minutes. He has an out-of-body experience and when he wakes up, is convinced he's in hell - his wife's cheating on him, his daughter's a whore, his son's a drug dealer, his business associates cause cancer - so he tries to Be Good to get out of hell and into heaven.

So far, it's interesting to me for the mapping of the afterlife onto what is "real" life - which also begs the question about how we know this isn't the afterlife now...
 
  
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