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Kill the Buddha

  
 
Aertho
17:04 / 23.01.03
Could someone please explain to me what "When you see the Buddha, Kill the Buddha." actually means?

I read it somewhere a LONG time ago, and now I keep hearing the quote in my head, triggered by media and conversation.
 
 
Jack Fear
17:13 / 23.01.03
"The idea of "killing the Buddha" comes from a famous Zen line, the context of which is easy to imagine: After years on his cushion, a monk has what he believes is a breakthrough: a glimpse of nirvana, the Buddhamind, the big pay-off. Reporting the experience to his master, however, he is informed that what has happened is par for the course, nothing special, maybe even damaging to his pursuit. And then the master gives the student dismaying advice: If you meet the Buddha, he says, kill him.

"Why kill the Buddha? Because the Buddha you meet is not the true Buddha, but an expression of your longing. If this Buddha is not killed he will only stand in your way.

"...For our purposes, killing the Buddha is a metaphor for moving past the complacency of belief, for struggling honestly with the idea of God."
 
 
Mike
19:37 / 23.01.03
To put it another way, if you think that you have learnt magick, you haven't, all you have done is stopped learning magick. You must move past the barrier / break through the wall / kill the buddha / etc
 
 
FinderWolf
20:12 / 23.01.03
I thought it was something about the Buddha wanting to be freed early from the karmic cycle of life, so if you kill him, you free him and send him into nirvana; you'd be doing him a favor by putting into the better world. I honestly heard that from several sources, but I guess the reasoning given above is the accurate one.
 
 
cusm
20:30 / 23.01.03
I heard that one too, HunterWolf. Sort of a mercy killing, freeing him from the suffering illusion of life that he has become trapped in. Though I do like the explaination above better. The idea of an enlightened soul suffering just for being alive always seemed awfully goth to me.
 
 
Saint Keggers
01:31 / 24.01.03
The reason I heard (from Bill Moyer's interview with Joseph Campbell) is (paraphrasing here..) If you see the Buddha, kill him. Why? He's obviously a false Buddha. Because YOU are the Buddha.

I like it
 
 
illmatic
07:08 / 24.01.03
Yeah, I'd second Kegboy - any guru (external) is a blockage to experiencing yourself as the guru/ already enlightened.
 
 
· N · E · T ·
07:36 / 24.01.03
Now what am I going to do with that dismembered monk in my basement...
 
 
Devil's Avocado
09:40 / 24.01.03
"any guru (external) is a blockage to experiencing yourself as the guru/ already enlightened."

...the Indian Master Asvaghosa disagrees;

Fifty Stanzas on Guru Devotion
 
 
Mike
11:27 / 24.01.03
Unless I have misread or misunderstood the reference, Asvaghosa is referring to flesh and blood Buddhas, whereas this thread is talking about imagined Buddhas.

I wish to reiterate that in practical terms the Buddha is a concept of the highest perfection that can be achieved within the human form in this existence, and that the purpose of Buddhism is to become the Buddha. In other words, the purpose of Buddhism is to attain the highest perfection that your human form will allow you to achieve in this existence.

Therefore, any Buddha that you meet in meditation is most likely to be a projection of your desire to achieve this state of being, a daemon of your own creation, born out of your own frustrations at not yet having achieved this state of Buddhahood. Like any daemon, it must be faced and defeated - once it is gone and put behind you, you can move forwards. Until it is defeated, it will hold you back.
 
 
illmatic
11:36 / 24.01.03
Asa - will read that through when not at work and come back to you.

Evy with statements like this, I don't think there's one fixed interpretation, both are valid. In fact, maybe both are related - conceptions you project onto another or have about yourself - both as a limitation. Any of these might make an excellent thread - either something about teaching relationships in magick, projection or conceptions of self as a limitation.

Anyone care to kick it off?
 
 
Devil's Avocado
11:58 / 24.01.03
apologies if I've misinterpreted; "any guru (external)" as flesh and blood. That's how the comment came across to me.

I agree on killing the 'attatchment-to-becoming-a-buddha'. If you don't then you are indeed succeptible to the 'mara' projection that you are doing really well and have almost made it.

Which raises an interesting dilema for me; is the desire to use Magick to alter the universe in conformity with ones Will simply an obstruction, a 'false-Buddha', on the path to enlightenment? A desire based on a limited or clouded perception of reality that one should 'kill' in itself?

a dillema I'd love to see phrased better and discussed.. maybe in a new thread?
 
 
Mike
12:02 / 24.01.03
The original Buddha forbade his disciples from using psychic abilities because he believed that magick was a distraction from the path to enlightenment.
 
 
illmatic
12:13 / 24.01.03
Asa: I've got a really ace piece of writing on that I found last night, I think your comment is sufficient cause for me to stick it on here. It's I Ching related but I think I'll start a new thread - encapsulates a lot of dilemmas I've had myself.
 
 
Devil's Avocado
12:21 / 24.01.03
indeed Evy, but Tibetan Buddhism seems to be filled with 'magickal' ceremonies, rituals and practices, not to mention Tantra.

And 'High'(sorry to use the term) Magick offers it's own path to enlightenment using the ToL. (Please correct me if I'm wrong on this as I'm relatively new to Western traditions.) For me, Buddha Fields (void filled with limitless light) == Ain Soph Aur.

There is also a big difference between 'psychic abilities' and Magick and they are not mutually inclusive.
 
 
Devil's Avocado
12:26 / 24.01.03
brilliant, can't wait to see it Mack Daddy
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:10 / 24.01.03
is the desire to use Magick to alter the universe in conformity with ones Will simply an obstruction, a 'false-Buddha', on the path to enlightenment?

I think you can spin this round, and construct an interesting opposing argument that the desire to become an enlightened and perfected being is actually a self serving ego obstruction that distracts the working shaman-sorceror from providing for the physical needs of his community/tribe.

Maybe the road to enlightenment is best located through not directly seeking it, but by daily engagement with the living process of mediation between the material world and the world of spirit/the Divine.
 
 
Mike
14:01 / 24.01.03
Even simpler. Stop thinking about it. Stop talking about it. Just do it. Live your life. Play the cards you're dealt. See what happens. If you try to find enlightenment, you'll surely miss it because you'll be looking in the wrong place. If you just go with the flow, surely the flow will take you to enlightenment when the time is right?
 
 
Devil's Avocado
14:47 / 24.01.03
lol, thanks Gypsy, don't know why but that twist made me laugh.

It seems to me the motivation for both, enlightenment, and serving your community as shaman-sorceror stem from the desire to ease the suffering of fellow sentient beings. But is that desire to help selfish or truly altruistic? Arguably it would only be sincere if you had no choice, or tripped over it (the flow taking you when the time is right?).

If you get pleasure from helping others, then I can see that going for enlightenment could be percieved as the biggest ego trip. As in; 'No sorry, I can't exorcise this spirit haunting you good neighbour, I'm going for enlightenment for the sake of us all, see you in 12 years!

Also interesting to note is the choice of Boddhisatvas, who choose to delay full blown enlightenment untill everyone has made it and come back to Samsara to help us all on our way - (seeing it as selfish to go for enlightenment and returning to help thier community?)

And what if the cards you are dealt are all spiritual and magickal?
 
 
Loomis
14:52 / 24.01.03
Siddhartha by Herman Hesse might be seen to provide an interesting dramatization of this process. The protagonist moves through various stages of life, from living with ascetics to participating in the marketplace, neither of which bring satisfaction. He eventually finds contentment living with the ferryman - eating, sleeping, working, neither denying nor indulging either the body or the mind. Simply embracing the routines of the natural world and accepting our place within it.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
14:52 / 24.01.03
Even simpler. Stop thinking about it. Stop talking about it. Just do it. Live your life. Play the cards you're dealt. See what happens.
Couldn't agree more!
 
 
illmatic
15:10 / 24.01.03
Another point of view might be facilitated (sorry, this is works lingo creeping in - been writing reports all afternoon) by looking at the communities certain traditions emerge from - for instance Voodoo seems to me, as a total know-nothing outsider, to have an emphasis on "results magick" and getting things DONE - surely neccesities in what was originally a slave community and is still economically disadvantaged?

The "enlightenment traditions" (if we can attempt such a broad genralisation) arose from differing sets of circumstances so have differing factors at play. There are "folk" or Witchcraft traditions that exist in India, in contrast to the brahmancial-Vedic traditions but these don't get written about as much, as these are largely oral and thus not as well documented, and come from a less powerful group of people. Witchcraft is one of the accusations that frequently gets levelled at Tantrics, BTW.

I personally like the Hindu idea of the 4 "Oceans" of life - moskha (liberation), dharma (duty), arthta (I think - wealth) and kama (pleasure) all balancing each other out. Seems a healthy prescription to me!
 
 
cusm
17:05 / 24.01.03
One of the things I picked up from Zen was the idea that the state of searching for enlightenment is a state of unenlightenment. Very frustrating, as it means you can only find that goal by not thinking about it and just living, being a part of the natural order of things. Yet, I've always found this idea of enlightenment somewhat at odds with human nature, and the drive to become more than what you are. The effect, especially in more Taoist views, is one who does not act, but only reacts with the world according to their nature. Sounds like a great philosophy for a peasant farmer who is unable to raise his station in life, and so would benefit from a copeing mechanism to accept this and find happiness in his present state.

But what if what you do, what your place in the natural order of things, is to progress along the road to enlightenment and ability? I think this idea dodges the trap presented, that one can still progress in life and endure the suffering this brings, yet be at peace with it for it is one's place to be in motion in this way. Thus, pursuit of magick is simply what one does. The enlightenment in this case seems to be to not worry about it so much, accept that you are doing ok, and enjoy the ride, how ever far it takes you. Worry not so much for how well you succeed at it, and know that by doing it at all you have done your True Will.

The key seems to be in a state of balance in whatever it is you are doing. Its just easier to be in a state of balance if all you have to worry about it driving the ferry across the river a couple of times a day.
 
 
Mike
17:29 / 24.01.03
Allspirit Lyrics
Reach for the Light (Weil)
Steve Winwood - Balto Soundtrack, 1995

Deep in the night
the winds blow cold
and in a heartbeat
the fear takes hold

Deep in the storm
there's a place that's soft and still
where the road waits to be taken
if you only will

The voices inside you
can lead your soul astray
Believe in what you dream
Don't turn away
don't you turn away

Reach for the light
You might touch the sky
Stand on the mountaintop
and see yourself flying
Reach for the light
to capture a star
Come out of the darkness
and find out who you are

Somewhere in time
the truth shines through
and the spirit knows
what it has to do

Somewhere in you
there's a power with no name
It can rise to meet the moment
and burn like a flame

And you can be stronger
than anything you know
Hold on to what you see
Don't let it go
don't you let it go

Now, there's no turning back
when your destiny is calling
Listen to the thunder roll
and let your heart break free

Reach for the light

http://www.allspirit.co.uk/lyrics.html
 
 
cusm
18:08 / 24.01.03
Nice
 
 
Mike
18:55 / 24.01.03
It was post number 23 in this thread. ;-)
 
 
Simplist
02:04 / 25.01.03
Could someone please explain to me what "When you see the Buddha, Kill the Buddha." actually means?

A very interesting commentary on just this issue can be found here.

I'll post a few thoughts of my own a little later.
 
 
Simplist
03:15 / 25.01.03
While the link I posted above offers what probably qualifies as the "correct" answer, I've more generally seen the "kill the Buddha" formulation used as a sort of blanket dismissal of any spiritual authority that comes from outside oneself, which is problematic on multiple levels.

Consider: If you wanted to learn to play a particular musical instrument, you could just acquire one (a clarinet, for instance) and start blowing on it and mashing keys. Gradually you might learn, but it would likely take you some considerable time to even figure out how to install the reed properly, and chances are you'd never reach a very high level of skill. Alternately, you could simply take lessons from someone semi-accomplished on the instrument, who could show you the basics very quickly and offer you a practice regimen the use of which would help you to learn at your maximum potential speed. As you progress, you might find you need to move on to another, more accomplished teacher who can take you deeper into the practice, and so on. Finally, you stand on your own as an accomplished musician. Maybe you even have your own students.

Now obviously the analogy of music teacher to spiritual teacher is not perfect. For one thing, in evaluating a music teacher it's fairly easy to discern whether or not they are in fact as skilled as they claim; just listen to them play. With a spiritual teacher things are not so cut and dry. Additionally, the spiritual path itself is frought with traps of delusion and inflation, which only grow more perilous and enticing the deeper one goes. A "teacher" may well be quite "advanced" in certain respects, yet still be quite fixated/deluded (possibly even more so than some one less "advanced") and, therefore, potentially dangerous (or at least potentially distracting). Still, intelligent guidance from someone (sanely) further along the path can be invaluable under the right circumstances. Although skepticism and vigilance are enormously important when approaching any kind of "spiritual authority", to cut oneself off from the potential of any such guidance is IMO quite foolish if spiritual development is something that's really important to you.

The other big problem inherent in this interpretation ("no spiritual authority from outside oneself") is that it opens the doors to a different kind of inflation, ie. "I'm already enlightened and I don't need to learn anything". It offers a ready-made "spiritual" rationalization for the (deluded) self to resist change, development, self-examination. Not that every solitary meditator or magick practitioner is doing this, but I know more than a few who are.

I think the important message of "kill the Buddha" is that ultimately you and the Buddha are not two. What is to be "killed" is the projection, the illusion that the Buddha before you is ultimately other than the Buddha that you are. However, until this understanding is deeply experiential rather than merely intellectual, the Buddha outside in the form of someone who is directly living this understanding can be of great help on many levels.
 
 
Sebastian
14:52 / 26.01.03
Since Evy mentioned going with the flow, I realised that only recently -two weeks ago?- I came to relate the notions of flow and autotelic behavior to zen. Long theorizations about the experience of flow and about behavior being either autotelic or exotelic, are developed by the definitely-boring-to-read Mihaly Csikszentmihaly. A fine example of how you can perfectly die of his prose is a pdf chapter from his book on Creativity.

Altohugh I haven't finished reading it yet, THE WAY OF FLOW by Craig Green appears like a fine development on both flow and zen buddhism.
 
 
Mike
16:17 / 26.01.03
I've read the link and 'Flow' seems to be a westernisation of Chinese ideas about Chi.
 
 
Mike
16:29 / 26.01.03
"The sage experiences without abstraction,
And accomplishes without action;
He accepts the ebb and flow of things,
Nurtures them, but does not own them,
And lives, but does not dwell."

From The Tao Te Ching - An Interpolation by Peter Merel
http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/taoism/ttcmerel.htm
 
 
illmatic
22:11 / 26.01.03
Asa, this is that piece of writing I promised, in response to your query "is the desire to use Magick to alter the universe in conformity with ones Will simply an obstruction, a 'false-Buddha', on the path to enlightenment?"

Nicked from Kaos magazine, Number 8 - Joel Biroco's (editor) reply to a letter from Maggie Ingalls (otherwise known as Soror Nema, "prophetess" of the Maat current/extension of Thelema)

.. I don't see chaos as a pre-created jigsaw puzzle but something that is created at the precise moment of recognition, and that this recognition gives the impression that it is pre-created, the element of pre-creation to me is simply something that makes the experience stronger, but I would be a fool to think that this is anything other than a pleasent illusion. Likewise for the idea of Maat is the emanation of a future truth, this too is an illusion, but a useful one. After all, if we are not to become zombies it's handy to see the Universe as having some qualities. I think the Current emerges from the NOW, the past and future can't attain much grasp on me. Yeah, it's one thing to create from the beginning and get the job right (Hexagram 1, the Creative) BUT we must also bear in mind what the I Ching advises about trying to lead the current - if we are try to lead then we are lead astray (Hexagram 2, the Receptive) - so we must be receptive to what appears to be cohering into a pattern of it's own making. One leads by following, not like a sheep, but with Vision, and my experience with the I Ching teaches me when it's right to take things into my own hands (like grasping the Sacrificial Vessel strongly and confidently, rather than dropping it through uncertainity about one's will) and when to wait, just wait, until the pattern reveals itself to me. To try to do one without the other is unbalanced, so the idea of a pre-created pattern is useful, otherwise we become prey to Hubris. The presumption that we are in the position to create things right from the beginning. Wouldn't you say this is the precise reason the world is in the mess it's in at the moment?

Not much to add to that, but the implication (to me) is that sometimes it's just as much part of things to act than to stand back. All part of the ebb and flow. I might also add to GL's point above about serving the tribe - in the similar way, ideas of service, duty are going to help with the avoidance of Hubris.
 
 
illmatic
10:53 / 27.01.03
Asa: had as few more thoughts about this over the weekend so I thought I’d bash ‘em down. I don’t really agree with the notion that our normal lives are subordinate to any notion of “enlightenment”. Looking back on my I Ching diaries over the past few years, I find that significantly more than 50% of the divinations I’ve done for myself have been for matters around relationships and love or work and money. Id be lying if I said I thought they are “less important” than any notions of spirituality (I’d also be lying if I claimed to be totally sorted out in these areas) . These areas can be as much of a spur for learning and growth as anything else. I’d see “enlightenment” or liberation as trying to deal with these areas, and others in a non- attached, less grasping, confused or fearful manner, through “magical means” or otherwise.

It might be a problem if I was just trying to replicate the values of society through my magical work – just get rich or shagged a lot, with no consequences - but I’m not. I'm trying to give expression to these areas and others in the "right" way, however I define that. Magick doesn’t seem to work as just gratification for me... that sigil to shower with the members of the Cuban Womens volleyball team never seemed to work...
 
 
Devil's Avocado
19:47 / 27.01.03
Thanks MD, some great thoughts there, and in the whole thread.

I think the Current emerges from the NOW, the past and future can't attain much grasp on me.

Dealing with the NOW is to be in the moment of manifestation. Subduing the ego enough allows one to be an unobstructed tool of it's flow.
Identifying and becoming in synch with currents of reality and fate, acting and non-acting in accordance with their ebb and flow, all very Tao.

I’d see “enlightenment” or liberation as trying to deal with these areas, and others in a non- attached, less grasping, confused or fearful manner, through “magical means” or otherwise.

Again very Taoist. Everything can be used as the path, including money. If your 'simply living' includes magick, that that too is part of your path.

ideas of service, duty are going to help with the avoidance of Hubris.

I agree, but for me it's not a conflict of community and personal work, the question is with the sincerity of motivation of the practictioner. I see that problems arise with attatchment to success or faliure - desire or fear of either - along your path, which brings motivation under question.

Which for me is a point where the Magickal and Mystic paths cross; in achieving gnosis/casting. Attatchment to success muddies the intent in ego complexes and sabotages the result.

Really enjoying this thread.
 
  
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