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Oh No, not another Prisoner Thread!

 
 
jeff
18:36 / 21.01.03
Just curious, what with the unfortunate filler episodes and lack of continuity; What is your preferred order of watching them? Which ones would you omit?

The thing is, (because I never post without some kind of underlying motive) the various lists I've found on the net are either too long, or short and sweet but omit Dance of the Dead (guess which is my favourite episode)..........yeah!
 
 
bio k9
19:25 / 21.01.03
McGoohan intended the series to last for seven episodes but the studio wanted 17 to fill out a whole season.

Arrival
Free For All
Dance of the Dead
Checkmate
The Chimes of Big Ben
Once Upon a Time
Fall Out

are the seven IIRC.
 
 
jeff
21:15 / 21.01.03
The thing is, regardless of what McGoohan may have intended, some classic episodes aren't included. Hammer and Anvil for one; the Schizoid Man, and what of the continuity between A.B and C and The General.

He may have gone off the rails a bit with TGWWD, but some of the "filler" episodes are also some of the best (in my opinion). What would be your personal favourite order?
 
 
Seth
14:24 / 22.01.03
I won't have a word said against The Girl Who Was Death. Genius from start to finish. Hypocritamus, Pin and did the marathon in two shifts over the last six months, and there was precious little that I'd describe as filler.
 
 
sleazenation
14:58 / 22.01.03
I don't think the concept of a "filler" episode really applies here. There was no arc. There was a first and last episode, but that's all there really was in terms of continuity ... (ok its arguable that the penultimate episode leads into fall out) outside of that everything is self contained and can really be watched in any order. We have literally no idea if the events we see in the 17 episodes elapse of days, weeks, months or years.
 
 
_pin
15:08 / 22.01.03
The marathon me, exp and Hypocritamus (could have sworn he was called something different then... ) did had a different running order, but I don't know what it was. But it wasn't backwards. Because that would have been mean.

The Girl Who Was Death is superb. Completely mad and fun. Dance Of The Dead was a bit weak, but that may have been that it was placed too early. Other fans I've spoken to since don't seem to have the problems I do with it.
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
15:31 / 22.01.03
The only one I really won't watch is the Do Not Forsake me one. Ecch it's dreadful.

As far as episode order... I dunno. I like watching Arrival, COBB, A B and C, Dance of the Dead, Schizoid Man, ... whatver in here... Girl Who Was Death, finale two parter. I really am amused by the idea that GWWD is a mockery of Fallout as it's about 6 fighting a mad Napolean.

Anyone seen Danger Man as well? I got a box set and while I was sick watched them all. Very slow, but so am I, so I loved it... I'm going to buy more. Hell with it.
 
 
jeff
18:29 / 22.01.03
I would have to disagree to an extent. While there is no strong plot arc that stretches across the episodes, there are little references and clues to the order.

For instance, in the first episode, 6 refuses to greet people with "Be Seeing You". This is also the case at the start of Free for All, until he decides to run for the position of 2. In all other episodes, there is no such reticence.

In DOTD, 6 states "I'm new here", whereas in "It's your funeral", the sheer number of de-activated 2's during his time in the Village are paraded on screen.
Also, during some episodes he is short and rude to the point of misogyny with the female villagers, a characteristic which is mysteriously absent in many of the others, and (perhaps) a sign of his prolonged stay. He certainly shouts less in the final two, than in the first episode.
Once Upon a Time is directly followed by Fallout. It makes even less sense otherwise.
In Arrival and Free for All, there are enigmatic references to French being International. While this is not followed up in any of the other episodes as far as I know, it would make sense that these two episodes sat side by side.
Finally, the early episodes feature him trying to escape physically, whilst later on, they concentrate more on some kind of "inner" escape, culminating in 6 meeting 1.

These are just opinions so feel free to flame, but thats how I see it. But I still think McG stretched it out too long. And TGWWD has the feel of a script idea discarded from another series. I agree it is "mad and fun", but still does not stand well alongside most of the other episodes. Of course if you want to ignore the premise of there being some kind of continuity or journey involved, then it really doesn't matter if it fits in.


P.S, Do you believe he was brainwashed or merely playing along in Free for All?
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
19:46 / 22.01.03
"P.S, Do you believe he was brainwashed or merely playing along in Free for All? "

Interesting idea... If he wasn't, and was instead using what he saw as a stupid extension of security that he planned on using against them (letting him anywhere near the controls!) then that last scene where he gets bitch-slapped around is even more horrific... Yeah, I like that.
 
 
jeff
02:35 / 24.01.03
Okay. Since the beginning fo this thread I have now watched Arrival, DOTD, Free for All and Checkmate.
Working on the basis of two things. In my particular episode order, I want him to become more familiar with the other villagers as time progresses, so I want to put those episodes where he doesnt say "Be seeing you" at the start. Out of the 4 above, Free for All is the only one where he does this.
Secondly, in DOTD, theres a big Shindig about 6 never seeing the Village by night. Therefore it would seem odd to place any episodes with night-time scenes before this one. (Twilight is okay though, as I'll explain shortly).
Arrival is in daylight. Checkmate is in daylight and twilight. DOTD is the turning point on the day/night cycle, and Free for All has a big night-time scene.

Disclaimer: I am fully aware I appear to be disappearing fast up my own back orifice, however I will not let this one go. Anyone can take the Prisoner to fit their own personal interpretation. If you use some episodes, it can look like a spy trying to escape from an holiday camp for spies; in others you can make it look like he has imprisoned himself inside his own mind; and others. I'm going for the nightmarish mindscape premise, which is why I include DOTD in the first place, but I want the bizarre imagery and weirdness to creep in gradually on the viewer, rather than slam into them like a freight train.

P.S. Next in n48's incredibly anal prisoner episode listing quest............A.B and C. + The General!!!!

P.P.S. A question asked of me at work today, "How do you respond to someone saying that the village as a metaphor for modern society and democracy is too simplistic?"
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
12:51 / 24.01.03
Funny, that's almost a quote from COBB where Number 2 says it is hus solemn belief that the rest of the world will view the Village as an ideal model to draw from.

To which 6 replied "I'd like to be the first man on the moon."

The soundtracks recently released by SilvaScreen are amazing.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
15:35 / 18.06.04
Hey kids, The Prisoner is being repeated on BBC4 on Friday nights. We've already had the first two, which I didn't mention because I thought it was a one off, but it looks like they're doing the whole lot.
 
 
FinderWolf
16:30 / 18.06.04
It just hit me that this show should come out on DVD. Anyone hear of plans for such?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
16:32 / 18.06.04
It already is. In the UK, anyway.
 
 
PatrickMM
16:43 / 18.06.04
It's out in the States too, I watched them all on DVD last summer.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
08:06 / 19.06.04
As far as the "filler" ones go, the Western (is it "Living In Harmony"? My incredibly anal Prisoner Companion book isn't to hand) is pretty damn cool. But could fit in anywhere, really.

I fuckin' LOVE the Prisoner. And I've only just remembered how much reading this thread. (Somewhere at my Mum's house I think I still have a blazer with a Number Six badge on it). "Fall Out" is one of the greatest pieces of TV EVER... you have no idea how excited I was when "Wild Palms" reprised the "All You Need Is Love" scene only with "Paint It Black"...
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
10:31 / 19.06.04
It's out on DVD here in the US in a really bad format (four episodes per set), but will prolly get re-released this summer, since BBC America is going to run the series again.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
07:25 / 02.08.04
I've been watching the whole thing on BBC4, blimey but it really slides up and down the barometer from 'quality drama' to 'load of old bollocks' doesn't it? I have to say that the prime offenders in that latter category being the cowboy episode, The Girl Who Was Death (did someone inform The Avengers that one of their scripts had been stolen?) although admittedly very funny, and Free For All which, rather than being a story about freedom both personal and political decides to bollocks everything up with some sort of bizarre brainwashing story.

Sadly, the most intelligent thing I've seen so far in the script was in the second episode with Leo McKern's Number Two when Number Six points out that he's as much of a prisoner as the rest. After that it descends into something of a mess. Almost every week the authorities wave someone in a skirt at Number Six to get him involved in whatever daft plot they've come up with this week (I mean, shall we drug him with truth serum to find out why he resigned, or shall we make him think he's a fucking cowboy?!) at the end of which the girl is always remorseful that she got involved.

I liked The Schizoid Man although it's very handy that for one week only Rover turns homicidal and actually kills Number Six's double leaving Six to almost escape. How annoyed they would have been if it really had been Six that was killed! Do Not Forsake Me, admittedly forced upon them by outside reasons is stupid however, revolving around a traditional idea in these tv shows that the hero is the only person who isn't a cretin. I'm not sure why he's brainwashed into forgetting the previous year in The Village, maybe as everyone else in the Village is docile the people in the hospital just really like brainwashing Number Six whenever they can? But the clear impression you get at the end of the episode is that although Number Six has helpfully informed the authorities that the Professor has escaped in the other man's body they just let him fly away and are apparently helpless to stop him.

Everyone gets to leave, except Number Six. And even by halfway through he's largely conformed to an accepted status as an outsider in the village, playing chess with the oldies, reading stories to the kids that have suddenly appeared in the village, It's Your Funeral is a case in point, I don't believe him when he says that the murder of the old Number Two will cause the authorities to punish the Villagers, after all they know who has done the deed and punishing the Villagers disrupts from it's function as a holding colony for subversives and ex-spys. But secondly, why would Number Six care about the Village or the Villagers? Anything that increases the level of chaos in the Village would be helpful to him leaving, and it's clear from early episodes that he regards most Villagers as contemptible for relaxing into their incarceration. In Hammer and Anvil he easily causes chaos in control by pretending to be a spy, but doesn't use this to escape.

The most positive thing I can say about the whole process is that Number Six is a total bastard. He's cold, aloof, often uncaring, brutal. He's an old boy, has the right school tie, went to the right clubs, was going to marry the bosses daughter for goodness sake. His feeling in the early episodes is not so much outrage that a place like The Village exists, but that he, HE! was sent there. The gatekeeper doesn't like it when he's locked in his own prison. I don't think we are supposed to like him, just accept that his desire for freedom is the right one. Sadly after a few months (and presumerably once Patrick's intended scripts have run out and we have the ones made up to make up the numbers) his character is softened and he becomes more heroic. I can barely remember what I read of Joseph Campbell and his schema for the heroes journey but I think one of the stages is that the hero gets some special knowledge or insight. In The Prisoner he doesn't. In fact at the one point he learns something he didn't know, the identity of Number One, he backs away from it, and that's why, in the end, he doesn't escape. He's flunked the final exam.

And the different Number Twos are different people. It's not just a revolving door policy because Patrick and the Butler are the only constants, you do get the idea that the Authority is sending different people with different strengths and weaknesses and ideas to try and break Number Six. Some Number Twos are terrified of their master, Leo McKern speaks to him at the start of the penultimate episode almost as an equal. But do they want the droneish conformity of The Outer Church, or do they, as the parade of Number Twos suggest, prefer individuals who know their place?

It's an interesting show but it really hasn't aged well and deserves to be left back in the Sixties where it came from.
 
 
Benny the Ball
15:47 / 02.08.04
I always thought that there was supposed to be more, lots more episodes, but they made McGoohan tie it all up in the final two episodes.

As for order, well, any order, as long as Hammer into Anvil and The Girl Who Was Death are in there.

Not the biggest fan of ABC.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
12:41 / 27.10.04
This thread confuses me. I think a number of people might be missing the point. The whole 'retired spy, captured to prevent him leaking secrets/to discover his secrets' bit is just a cover for McGoohan and friends to have a pop at society.

The thing is, it's not a MacGuffin in the same way as, say, Laura Palmer's death is. Twin Peaks was still built around a group of solidly defined characters and situations and the viewer was expected to come armed with all the baggage of the previous shows each week.

In The Prisoner, you're supposed to ignore everything that's come before. The events of the previous episodes have no bearing whatsoever on those of the current one.

As such, arguments about the (lack of) continuity are a complete waste of time. The idea is that the premise remains the same week in, week out, but is only there to provide an easy access point for both the writer and the audience. This is made blindingly obvious in certain episodes. For a start, there are those where 6 gets out of the Village and returns to London. Each time he goes to see his immediate superiors, and each time they're completely different people, with completely different power structures in place. Then there's the spliced footage of 6 warning a succession of 2's about a plot on their lives in It's Your Funeral - two of the three people sitting in the big round chair are people we've never seen before and will never see again. Add in the way that certain episodes directly contradict each other when it comes to answering the question of who runs the Village, the fact that 6 - and his old bosses - actually pinpoints the location of the Village in one episode (Many Happy Returns) then forgets it for the rest of the series (and that this location is contradicted in both Fall Out and The Chimes of Big Ben), all the inconsistencies mentioned in the other posts in this thread... They're self-contained commentaries on authority and individualism - well, bar TGWWD, which *is* a self-contained Avengers episode and Dance of the Dead, which is self-contained meaningless nonsense (if attractive, dream-like meaningless nonsense).

There are only three episodes where running order matters - Arrival, Once Upon a Time, Fall Out. There's an argument for saying that Living in Harmony has a place in that 'continuity', because of the reappearance of Alexis Kanner as 48, but when you consider that he's effectively playing two totally different parts for two totally different reasons you can safely boot that one out of any attempt at defining a running order. Stop tring to solve puzzles that have no solution and trying to put a rigid temporal straightjacket around the series - and then complaining when the stitches get ripped apart - and just watch each epsiode as an individual programme that exists independently of the others.

Flowers> Almost every week the authorities wave someone in a skirt at Number Six to get him involved in whatever daft plot they've come up with this week... at the end of which the girl is always remorseful that she got involved.

Not so. Chimes... and .. Harmony are the only two where this happens.

Oo - McGoohan's on Murder, She Wrote right now, looking like he's comes straight from the set of Scanners and giving me the odd feeling that I'm going to see Jessica Fletcher's head explode any second.
 
  
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