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The Never-Ending War

 
 
tom-karika nukes it from orbit
19:09 / 18.01.03
Have we actually had any real state of peace since 1939? We seem to have split the conflicts of the last sixty-something years into a distinct series of 'wars'- World War 2, the Gulf War, Falklands War, Cold War etc.

But can they be considered as one long rolling war, changing venue every few years, almost always involving the UK and US? Can we trace all modern conflicts directly back to World War 2, or even WW1?
 
 
SMS
03:55 / 19.01.03
WWI and WWII had such a huge impact on everything that you could probably trace just about anything that happens today back to both of them. The US and UK are both so powerful in the world that it is difficult to find something they don't influence. Have we ever had a state of peace? It depends on how you look at it. No one tried to kill me on the way to work this morning. That won't make the headlines, though. I'm hoping for the same thing tomorrow.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
19:42 / 19.01.03
Well, technically America hasn't been at peace, doesn't it still have the war laws brought in by FDR in force? But I think there were a few years of peace between the end of the Gulf War and the whole Bosnia thing, or was there Somalia in between?
 
 
Linus Dunce
21:24 / 19.01.03
Well, everything's connected somehow. And what caused WWI/II? You could trace a lot back to the emergence of nation states, but they didn't spring out of nothing.

Even so, I'm not clear how the Falklands war relates to the conflicts in Bosnia. It's a big world, and there's always stuff happening somewhere.
 
 
Brigade du jour
21:38 / 19.01.03
Long intake of breath ...

Have we had peace since 1939? This question prompts me to ask another question - have we had peace ever? The leitmotif of human history seems to have been war, conflict, violence and destruction, but I'm sure none of us want to incur the wrath of the moderators by getting sidetracked into a debate on the nature of our species. At least not without starting another thread.

It all depends, as it always does, on your terms. What exactly do you mean by 'war'? For example, the coming conflict in Iraq (forgive my resignation to what I think is a likelihood and not a possibility) is, IMHO, not so much a war as an instance of bullying. The biggest kid in the playground, one might say, against any of the smaller kids. If and when this conflict escalates with troop deployments into actual battle, scud missiles liberally exchanged and lots of oil fields and indeed people on fire, 'war' sounds like a convenient word. But 'war', to me at least, has always implied a certain balance in the power of both sides, e.g. Hitler's imperial successes and the subjugation of millions of people to a massive and well-organised army, against a coalition of three very powerful states and several other smaller states resolved to stop him (and his army).

But the conflicts of the last half-century have seemed more like either disputes between smaller groups, perhaps of a similar size and therefore describable as wars by the above definition, or military machinations reducible in description to simple imperialism against a far weaker target.

By that definition, what Bush is trying to do in Itaq, N Korea and any other country that doesn't do what he asks (tells them) is pretty much the same as what Hitler did in Poland, Czechoslovakia and France.

But, getting back to the question, I don't really know enough about history to say whether the conflicts that took place before 1939 are in nature any different from those that took place after. You could argue, for example, that The Allies and the Axis Powers are little different from England and France in the Hundred Years' War, or from India and Pakistan in the last few months, except obviously in scale and numbers of lives lost etc.

More to the point perhaps, 'peace' implies people getting along with each other happily, and that certainly doesn't describe any of the conflicts, empire-building or land disputes cited above, whoever's perspective you're looking from.

Sorry, I've gone all the over the place I know, but hopefully there are some morsels of thought in there somewhere. But in any case, this topic has posed an excellent question.
 
 
SMS
02:54 / 20.01.03
the coming conflict in Iraq ... is, IMHO, not so much a war as an instance of bullying. The biggest kid in the playground, one might say, against any of the smaller kids.

Should I take this to mean you'll be rooting for the underdog?

More to the point perhaps, 'peace' implies people getting along with each other happily, and that certainly doesn't describe any of the conflicts...

Which brings us back to my point. Any number of people get along quite well (I think happily might be stretching it, but that's really a personal thing). We record the conflicts in the history books and seldom mention the chumming up, unless it relates to some other conflict. We have peace between the US and Russia, U.S. and Canada, France and Germany, France and U.K., ... Have these peaces come from a long series of peaces? Does our non-conflict with Canada in the 30's have anything to do with the non-conflict with Canada today? These seem like irrelevant questions, but they aren't that far off from relevancy.

The United States and China have not gotten on to well since China fell to communism. As China moves away from communism at a snails pace, will the memory of U.S.-China relations before communism affect the American policy on the new China?
 
 
Brigade du jour
04:07 / 28.01.03
I'm a Pisces, I'm astrologically predisposed to root for the underdog! I don't know, I suppose I should support whichever side has the moral stance more closely resembling mine. Which is, in terms of this dispute alone, Iraq actually. But then Saddam's a bit of a cunt, to put it mildly. But then so is Bush. At moments like this I tend to break down and cry out "why can't we all just get along?" to be honest.
 
 
Mr Tricks
21:51 / 28.01.03
Well, What interests ME in this discourse is the mention of "history"...

who's writing the history books?

Could a history book be written from the perspective of one period of peace to another? Take for instance the mention of the "DARK AGES" in Europe as opposed to the cultural movements and progressions happening at that same time in the Middle-East or Africa... Not to mention ASIA.

I seem to recall a news story discussing the ethics of Microsoft recieving funding from Isreal & Turkey durring the development of "World History" CDROM and the coinsidental" ommisions both Palastinian land disputes and the Turkish genoside of Kurds (or was it Armenians). Yikes; I really should research this before commenting, but I just wanted to illustrate the subjectivity of "Recorded History"
 
 
Brigade du jour
21:55 / 28.01.03
you're damn right history is subjective. ooh, we could go off on one here! but I think that's probably another thread. go 'head and start one, dude.

(hope you don't mind being called dude, btw, it's a term of endearment down our way!)
 
 
Mr Tricks
17:08 / 29.01.03
I live in Northern California... almost the birthplace of the term "dude"...

it's used here for E V E R Y T H I N G!!!
 
  
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