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And tonight, Matthew Kelly will be...

 
  

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The Return Of Rothkoid
01:40 / 16.01.03
...arrested for kiddie-fiddling.

Is it just me, or is this kinda thing cropping up a lot more often with celebs?

Thoughts?
 
 
sleazenation
07:10 / 16.01.03
well it has been reported that one tv personality was still under surveillance recently, two labor MPs were also under the same scrutiny - I wonder if we will hear anything further in the next few weeks...
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
07:43 / 16.01.03
Jimmy Saville must be bricking it...

I'm not really sure what to think... the atmosphere at the moment seems to be that there's a child molester every couple of yards across the country. Surely if that was the case our society would condone it? That and the fact that I can't figure out how anything ever gets done in this country if as many of the workforce as we are told are spending all their time downloading unpleasant filth. (What with them and the 30,000 terrorists we apparently have hiding in the UK, I'm starting to think I may be the only law-abiding citizen left. Which is, quite frankly, embarrassing for an anarchist.)

What I do know is that naming these people before they've been charged is a very bad idea. Whether or not they're charged (let alone found guilty) that's them fucked for life. Does it matter (for example) whether John Leslie actually raped Ulrika Jonsson to anyone other than the law and the people involved? As far as the public's concerned he did, and when the details of the case are forgotten that's all anyone remembers. (Think of the name Colin Stagg- you'll probably associate it with the murder of Rachel Nickell. Which he was cleared of. But that's still the association.)

Like it or not, Matthew Kelly will always seem sinister now (well, he always freaked me out anyway, but that's not the point) even if he's found to be blameless. "No smoke without fire" and all that.

Oh, and "shit sticks".
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
08:15 / 16.01.03
so does spunk.
 
 
The Natural Way
08:23 / 16.01.03
Mao: "the atmosphere at the moment seems to be that there's a child molester every couple of yards across the country. Surely if that was the case our society would condone it?"

Hmm, actually I'm fairly convinced kiddylust IS really common, and, if that's the case, it's not surprising that, if we dig a bit, we can find all sorts of horrid dirt on people. Basically, the only thing all this proves to me is that, as a culture, we can't afford to keep othering this dangerous, dodgy drive - we have to find better, more mature ways to deal w/ it, as opposed to plastering people's faces all over the evening news and shouting "NONCERY! NONCERY!". We need grown-up juice.
 
 
rizla mission
14:39 / 16.01.03
I always used to go on about how he looked slimy and untrustworthy and frightening and evil..

Thus, aside from more serious concerns about the now postively insane levels of nonce hysteria in Britain, I feel like phoning up everyone I knew a few years ago and saying "I told you so".
 
 
Old brown-eye is back
15:15 / 16.01.03
"We need grown up juice"

There's a bad choice of words for yo' ass. (You're dead right though, Mr Runce.)
 
 
Bill Posters
15:39 / 16.01.03
 
 
Brigade du jour
21:37 / 16.01.03
What was that TV sitcom he did back in the eighties where he, like, lived in a flat or something ... probably with his steaming brood of freshly nonced children.

Paedophiles should be treated, not punished, by the way. Right on.
 
 
Ganesh
22:07 / 16.01.03
Yeah, 'cause it's that easy to "treat" them...
 
 
Spatula Clarke
22:31 / 16.01.03
Interesting how attitudes shift from cautiously supportive when it's a rock idol who's getting charged with noncery to vaguely accusing when it's a mainstream TV presenter...

Also fairly depressing to see the BBC reposting what looks like an old article questioning Kelly's sexuality in connection with these charges.
 
 
Ganesh
23:17 / 16.01.03
I think the charges are different, as are the individuals' responses.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
23:30 / 16.01.03
I know, I know. Townsend's presumably looking at something like possession of indecent images, whereas Kelly's getting sized up for the full-on Charlie Chester. The press just seemed to go easier on Townsend (as in not immediately presume that he's guilty) initially, but maybe that's just me remembering it wrong.

Which'd be pretty worrying, seeing as how it's only about a week ago. Memories...
 
 
Brigade du jour
00:06 / 17.01.03
Okay Ganesh, 'treat' is a poor choice of word, how bout helped?

Thing is, it is easier to punish than to help, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to help.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
00:48 / 17.01.03
I'm losing track. Does this mean Matthew Kelly's a lizard?
 
 
Ganesh
08:25 / 17.01.03
Oh, I agree, Felicia, but it's almost as difficult to know how someone with an essentially fixed sexual desire upon which they must never act can be helped. Many such avenues were explored when homosexuality was illegal, to 'help' gay people reverse or suppress their orientation - all to little or no effect.
 
 
Smoothly
09:05 / 17.01.03
Are there many other crimes are tackled by stamping out the market for them? A desire for cheap clothing creates a market for child-labour and sweat-shops, yet we don't criminalise the consumers.
And are sex-crimes unique in that it's a serious offence to possess mere images of the crime being committed?

Can we expect to see the rise of Paedo-Pride in our lifetimes?
 
 
The Natural Way
09:51 / 17.01.03
I wasn't advocating anything (not treatment, not nuttin'), except for honest, unhysterical, reasonable discussion. Juss'n like these here boards.
 
 
Ganesh
10:51 / 17.01.03
Given that somewhere around a fifth of adult males (see Laboratory thread) experience sexual arousal toward (images of) children, it'd be difficult to completely eliminate all demand. The sweatshop analogy doesn't quite work (better pay, conditions and union rights for child porn stars?) and 'Paedo Pride' is unlikely, as there just ain't no getting around the fact that this particular form of sexual attraction involves a non-consenting individual...

But yeah, reasoned debate is good.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
12:29 / 17.01.03
Well, he's out on bail and got a standing ovation when he returned to the theatre to continue the pantomime he's in. Don't particularly are for him personally but it would be nice to see a big police action go supremely wrong in the hopes that it will remind people that someone is innocent until proven guilty.

It's weird, people don't seem to trust the police to get the right guy normally, but when it's something to do with kids the public seem ready to attack whoever they arrest, even if it was the Queen everyone would be going "Ooooh, all those kids that brought her flowers, that was just a cover so she could gangnoncerape them herself!"
 
 
Smoothly
12:34 / 17.01.03
The public debate does seem to be showing signs of becoming more reasoned - or at least less hysterical. The standing ovation for Matthew Kelly last night is interesting.
My sweat-shop example was perhaps an inelegant one, but I was thinking more that it is increasingly unusual for undesirable activities in general to be stopped by trying to eliminate the demand for it, rather than the practice itself.

I agree that paedo-rights are problematic, but it's not unimaginable that attitudes to the age of consent could change. Sex with children, I understand, has not always been so taboo.
 
 
The Natural Way
12:40 / 17.01.03
I imagine the standing ovation is just as mindless as the cries of "NONCERY! NONCERY!"
 
 
Ganesh
12:45 / 17.01.03
No, child-adult sex hasn't always been taboo - again, more on that in the other thread - but I'd say it's unlikely that the current trend within Western society will be reversed in the near future. I agree that the age of consent is somewhat arbitrarily set but it's difficult to see on what grounds it might be lowered.

The standing ovation is, as you say, interesting. I can't help feeling it has more to do with the reverence of 'celebrity' than anything more firmly grounded in reality, however.

Me, I wonder why they never got around to arresting Bill Wyman...
 
 
Smoothly
13:07 / 17.01.03
The age of consent is much lower in some countries isn't it. IIRC it is much lower in Holland - with certain nonce-inhibiting previsoes about age difference. But I agree, little chance of the prevailing attitude changing the the near future.

I suspect there is more to the Kelly ovation than mindless reverence to celebrity. Gary Glitter - as far as I know - didn't get that sort of reaction. Not that I think he ever put it to the test. Personally I wouldn't have expected that response to MK, esspecially from a panto audience.

Ganesh - it is strange how musicians seem to get an easier time of it. The list of rock stars reputed to 'like 'em young' is extensive (and almost certainly libelous), but seems tolerated as just another part of that good ol' fashioned rock 'n' roll excess we like so much.
 
 
The Natural Way
13:18 / 17.01.03
Why else would they be clapping, though? Other than "Look! It's our Matthew Kelly from STARS IN THEIR EYES, he couldn't possibly have done those bad things/how dare the evil press men accuse this lovely man before we know the truth!" I can't think of another reason.

If it was Joe Bloggs, he'd be guilty as fucking charged, believe me.
 
 
Bill Posters
13:22 / 17.01.03
I just love the way The Mirror and The Sun have taken opposing stances (as usual), the former running the headline Oh No I Didn't and the latter running I'm Back Boys and Girls.
 
 
Smoothly
13:26 / 17.01.03
But I don't think he has been charged. And I don't reckon that your description of the audience's thinking is that 'mindless'. It sounds to me like a reasoned and emphatic show of support. I think booing and heckling could also have been expected.
 
 
Ganesh
13:39 / 17.01.03
Well, he's a bona fide ITV prime-time 'cheeky chappy' celeb who appeals to all age-groups - so I'd argue that there is likely to be a 'but he's Matthew Kelly - he wouldn't do that!' reaction. Hardly "mindless" but not, I'd speculate, especially considered either.

I think Wyman got off lightly because he had sex with underage girls - and that's always been the most societally acceptable version of child-adult sex.

I don't know what the age of consent is in Holland, but for around three centuries it was 10 - in England. Much depends on the historical underpinnings but, in the absence of a convincing argument in favour of lowering the age of consent, I can't see it happening.
 
 
Smoothly
13:54 / 17.01.03
Your last post on the Lab thread is very enlightening. I had no idea how common the prediliction was, or how recently it was tolerated in Britain.
I slightly misposted my reference to Dutch law, by the way. I meant to say that I had some recollection of the age of consent being lowered quite recently, to something like 12, with a still active lobby campaigning for it to be lowered further, purely, (I think) for ideological reasons. I'll have to do some research.
 
 
Eloi Tsabaoth
15:18 / 17.01.03
Lord help my cathode ray warped brain, I can't help but view this whole 'seven more celebrities about to be arrested' business as some twisted parody of Big Brother.
"And the second star to leave the celebrity community in disgrace is... Matthew!"
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
15:51 / 17.01.03
Meant to use this on a catholic church n' kidz thread but it seems as valid here.

Here is an article from Eye magazine in Toronto from May of last year.

Probing the final frontier

BY BRUCE LABRUCE

A friend of mine, an ex-Toronto gal who flew the coop for New York a decade ago and proceeded, Holly Golightly-style, to move through and exhaust a veritable Disneyland of sexual and psychosexual scenes, once blurted out over a Bloody Mary at lunch: "Pedophilia is the last frontier." At the time I thought she may have been nursing a slight case of Tourette's, but as it turns out, she was absolutely spot-on.

Now that terror is on the back burner, now that we've all come to the realization that the Bush cabinet is just using 9/11 as an excuse to extend the same old imperialist policies to control the oil resources of central Asia -- now we can all relax and focus our attention on something really entertaining: kids! Or more specifically, child pornography, "pedophilia" in the Catholic church, and the sexual peccadilloes of Haley Joel Osment and Billy Gilman.

As one of the more sexually repressed civilizations, the West has made a bad habit of trying to pretend that child sexuality does not exist. Some people, like youngsters in the midst of a tantrum, would rather cover their ears and loudly sing "Jesus Loves the Little Children" than listen to the inner voices of their baser instincts, the ones that acknowledge that adults can be turned on sexually by children, and that children experience sexual feelings and desires.

But let's get our terminology straight. Pedophiles are those who seek to have sex with children who have yet to go through puberty. Properly speaking, those men who go for post-pubescent boys, like the majority of the offending Catholic priests, are pederasts. Nature and common sense dictate that this line -- the puberty line -- is the one that should not be transgressed, and age of consent laws should reflect this. Once your hormones kick in with a vengeance at around the age of 13 or 14, there is no sense trying to pretend that you are not a fully sexual being

This is not to say that sexual desires are not forming long before puberty. As someone who knew he was a homosexual from the age of five or six, I was aware very early on that I had some sort of sexual attraction to the same sex. I had erotic dreams and fantasies while still a soprano even though I wasn't quite sure what they meant.

The American Psychological Association (APA) recently acknowledged that sexual experience between adults and children, if not coerced, particularly if enjoyed by a boy (as distinct from girls), does not have lasting harmful psychological effects. One sexologist, Dr. John Money of Johns Hopkins University, has gone so far as to say, "if I were to see the case of a boy aged 10 or 11 who's intensely erotically attracted toward a man in his 20s or 30s, if the relationship is totally mutual and the bonding is genuinely totally mutual ... then I would not call it pathological in any way."

The APA now encourages psychologists not to necessarily label all instances of adult/child sex as "abuse" or "molestation" -- labels that only serve to lend a victim mentality to something that may be completely natural and harmless. Of course, there are instances in which adults in positions of trust -- like priests and Boy Scout leaders -- have unhealthy and negative sexual contact with boys. In the case of priests, who are supposed to be celibate in the first place, the kind of guilt and confusion they must bring to these sexual experiences can only be severely creepy.

But ultimately, it's the split personality of a culture obsessed with youth and sexuality while simultaneously attempting to repress the reality of child sexuality that creates all the problems. In other perfectly legitimate civilizations, like the ancient Greeks', man-boy love was regarded as healthy and pedagogic, and in certain Muslim cultures today, as in Afghanistan, adult males still initiate boys into sex and act as their mentors. It was the uptight Taliban -- who were more aligned with Western, Christian sexual repression -- who tried to stop this apparently perfectly natural practice. Maybe a little more pedagogy and a little less paranoia here might not be a bad idea.


There are further responses available from the site on the following run of the column for those of you who are interested.

I can't say that I agree totally with all of the opinions posited therein but I think that on an overall basis the article does have some valid stuff to add to the current debates on the matter.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
16:35 / 17.01.03
There's a history of young girls appearing as the object of the singer's attentions in rock and pop songs. 'Little girls', especially, is a fairly widespread description in yr '50s pop. Then there are figures like Chuck Berry and Jerry Lee Lewis, to mention but two. Could go some way to explaining the different reactions.

The point about the press shifting down a gear from the scaremongering of the last few years is an interesting one. The Sun even dared to include a run down of possible paedo-themed TV shows in today's issue, which struck me as extremely hypocritical when you take their previous coverage of similar cases into account and the hysteria they helped to stir up over Brass Eye. I don't think it really represents a change in editorial style, though, more than it does a mistake on their part. Fully expect them to get pulled up for it by Disgusted of Cheltenham in a couple of days.

Glitter, of course, was easier to vilify. The only reason that's not happening in this case to anything like the same degree so far is because, hey, it's cuddly Matthew Kelly and he really couldn't be the sort of person who'd do this. Despite the fact that this has, apparently, come about as part of the same investigation that nabbed Glitter.
 
 
000
20:06 / 17.01.03
"Given that somewhere around a fifth of adult males (see Laboratory thread) experience sexual arousal toward (images of) children, it'd be difficult to completely eliminate all demand."

Darling, I am actually glad that you have such a loose definition of the word 'tomorrow,' because it would have meant a broken back if you had sent the references earlier, but please do bring them on this weekend. I have some things to add to your last post in the other thread.
 
 
Ganesh
21:08 / 17.01.03
"Broken back"?

I will get to it eventually. Honest!
 
 
000
22:16 / 17.01.03
I am currently carrying so much weight, you know.
 
  

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