BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


A Modest Proposal

 
 
Stone Mirror
18:23 / 15.01.03
No participant can have failed to notice the degree to which numerous threads here have rotted lately, largely due (in my view) to the sudden arrival of a self-proclaimed "ippssissimus" named "Joe". With Asa's support, Joe has suggested that time is short, that the coming year holds vast dangers, and that we should all fall in line and get cracking on ensuring that we do our collective utmost to avert imminent disaster.

I, among others, have responded to these suggestions with scorn and derision.

It is rare indeed that life, so commonly painted in a multitude of shades of gray, presents one with a fairly binary situation. I see two possibilities here: either Joe is seriously mistaken about his grasp of the subject matter of this forum, or I am.

I have my own opinions on the matter, obviously, and I've belabored the board sufficiently with them. I would summarize my view of the matter by saying that the highest grade Joe could possibly hold, in my estimation, is Adeptus Ineptus, -1°=11. But I try to keep firmly in mind Crowley's dictum that the Ipsissimus is "beyond all comprehension of those of lower degrees". Perhaps Joe is an extreme illustration of the truth of this.

Joe, who tells us that he is "not concerned with the physicl anymore and spend most of my time detached working with all spheres and energies", has suggested that he does much of his communication and teaching "asrally". Asa, whom Joe claims as a student, has evidently received some communication weighty and persuasive enough to encourage him to subscribe to, and support, Joe's point of view.

It may be that Joe, for reasons I cannot surmise (no doubt due to my insufficiently "high level"), seems to have much more difficulty communicating on the "physicl" plane.

I'd like to propose that Joe and his students, whomever they may be, as well as any other interested (and capable) parties, take their proselytizing efforts (and make no mistake: Joe is Enlisting your Support for a Cause here) off the Magick and confine it to the astral plane. This will have the benefit of ensuring that only those of a sufficiently "high level" involve themselves, and that any "jokers" (such as myself, say) are excluded. Given that time is evidently of the essence, this would also ensure that the necessary measures are taken by those capable of doing so, in all due haste, without the petty distractions of having to explain themselves to those less adept.

In this way, those of us who are, perhaps, too low-level to appreciate the tremendous opportunity which is passing us by can get on with our "pussyfooting around" with "simple base witchcraft and shamanism", not to mention that "overly simple" Chaos magic. Let us leave those with sufficient capacity to their "high level occult magicks and ippssissimal works".

I personally have no interest in "purifying the world". No doubt this is due to a lack of faith and imagination on my part. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
 
 
vajramukti
18:46 / 15.01.03
I've stayed out of this so far.


However, I suppose I might add something to this particular magick meta narrative.

salvador dali said: "if you don't think you're a genius, you probably aren't "

whether i agree with that statement or not isn't the point really. The climate of magick culture, and barbelith in particular is rife with the whole green-meme deconstructed dialectic all-paradigms-are-equally-valid-lets-be-utterly-ironic-about-everything vibe, which is all well and good, but it makes it pretty hard for anyone to stick thier neck out, take a stand for thier own personal authenticity, and speak their mind without getting attacked by every would be wit with a whiff of rightous indignation to tear down anything even remotely close to 'egotism'.

I neither agree or disagree with the people in question, but i think this whole frendly fascist attitude that 'al perspectives are equally valid, as long as they don't make any qualitative judgements' is a crock of shit,quite frankly.

if you don't like what someone else is saying, then ignore it. I do. most of the time anyway. just because the guys seems off his nut doesn't neccisarily mean he really is, and even if he is, who gives a shit?

you're no better. grow up and get on with some valuable magick work, if you're so concerned about that. same to any other people that i missed.
 
 
cusm
18:48 / 15.01.03
Ok, I was hoping to avoid this sort of thing, but it seems I'm a bit late.

Joe has made a lot of haughty claims that have irked a lot of people. He also hasn't offered anything tangible to this forum to back up his claims, save the creation of arguments about him.

To that end, can we please call a cease fire on this? Its the arguments about Joe more than Joe zeself that is causing the rot. He may or may not have begun here as a troll, but what is clear is that he's fast becomming one in effect. So, please cease with the squabblings. I think enough has been said, and if any more threads pop up about this I'm of a mind to start whacking them. Including this one.

For Joe, if you are going to post here, please post information and discussion, not rhetoric. The content of your speech has already become repetetive and is not going over well here. If you can't play along, please take Stone Mirror's proposal. Else, I'm going to propose to mods to start enforcing it. This rot has gone on far enough, and I don't want to see it spread any further.

Thanks.
 
 
penitentvandal
19:56 / 15.01.03
I second cusm's proposal.

If Joe posts inappropriate, self-aggrandizing rhetoric in a thread which is meant to be devoted to something else, I say we ignore it and stay focussed (or 'focused' - that's a word I'm never sure how to spell) on the topic itself. Otherwise, all Magick becomes is the Great War of Joe, and while that certainly sounds like a fantastic idea for a House of Java-style comic mini-series about beatniks in search of good coffee, it doesn't bake my cake as far as magic is concerned.

As Grant Morrison once said, in the Invisibles, magickal wars are ludicrous and should not bother the serious practitioner (not verbatim).

I don't agree with Joe's posturing, and have reason to believe he's not as good at magick as he says he is, but if that's the case, Stone, how does your jumping in on an obviously vulnerable fellow help any of us? Let the man be. I say we bring him up to our level of debate by example, by showing him that we can discuss magick in a sane and reasonable manner, and not let the topic degenerate into 'let's get Joe' night at every possible opportunity.

And if he can't get up to that level, he'll go away, because none of us will be massaging his ego. But if he really is serious about his magick, he'll hang around, and learn from us, even though that means he may lose some of his ego-scaffolding. And one more magician is always a good thing, isn't it?

Mmmmmm-kay?
 
 
Hobo Humping Slobo-babe
20:15 / 15.01.03
Each coming year has always been taged with the warning of great upheavel ( 1988,1989,1996,1997,1999,2000,2001,etc, all come to mind ) The time for leaders and secrecy is over. This is how we ended up with 6500 years of secrets and wars.

This is the beauty of Barbelith. As a unit, we are all at an amazingly equal level. All ideas are put out there, and wheteher accepted or not, no one person really has an advantage over the other.

What is wrong with that Joe? Why not share with the rest of the class? How about a thread of your own describing "What I Know By Joe?"

I would hate to start seeing splinter cells around here.
 
 
000
20:22 / 15.01.03
Stone Mirror,

Although I certainly can understand your view of Joe and what he has produced so far, I still have to say, Ignore Him if you can't deal with him, that's what the button is for.

My verdict on him hasn't yet been formed, that is why I started the IITTL pt. II in order to get a better grasp of what he is about (or on). Perhaps urging him to clarify his statements will yield better results than if we were to start a trollhunt.
 
 
Stone Mirror
20:25 / 15.01.03
Meh.

I think I'm going into lurker-mode around here, thanks. The next time someone wanders in, tells you he's the Pope and starts trying to sign up recruits for the Crusades, you go right ahead and work to "bring him up to our level of debate by example, by showing him that we can discuss [Crusades] in a sane and reasonable manner". If he comes by my house, he's taking an unscheduled lesson in very-short-term levitation.

Joe is only the third or fourth magus of high degree (and demonstrably low literacy) that I've run into in one context or another in the past month or so. As another practitioner for whom I have a great deal of respect commented when I related the situation to him, "I can't count the number of people I've met over the years who sound like this, and how alike they all are."

And one more magician is always a good thing, isn't it?

Um, no, not at all. Not if he's prone to being either a credulous chump, a power-seeker or a mental case. That'd be a bad thing, most likely only for the "magician" in question (as it seems, possibly, to have already been a bad thing for Joe), but perhaps for those around him if he manages to sucker others into ill-advised "group workings". Such a one is the peanut butter and jelly sandwich of Choronzon.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:49 / 15.01.03
I can understand and share in the feelings of weariness and frustration being expressed by many, but I've just checked over the forum and we seem to be getting an awful lot of threads orbiting around this kind of topic. Although this is obviously something we all feel very strongly about, it might be an idea to take a step back and to focus on other, more constructive subjects.


(A pedant veers wildly off-topic: Oh, and FFS, everyone-- if you're going to do the whole gender-non-specific thing then that's fine and dandy, but jeeze louise, stop giving it 'ze's'. He rode his bicycle, she rode her bicycle, ze rode hir bicycle. If you can't be logical then at least be consistant.)
 
 
penitentvandal
22:07 / 15.01.03
Well, each to their own, SM. If you want to lurk that's your choice. Just as it's your choice to thwack any would-be pope who approaches you.

My own theory is that Joe probably isn't up to hanging around here, and, if he isn't, and we ignore him, he'll go away in search of other seekers to feed his delusions of grandeur. But I feel that ignoring him and doing what we're supposed to be here to do - i.e. talk about magick - will be better than allowing the topic to degenerate into the Joe Wars.

Oh, and much as it pains me to point it out, I do feel you're being just a teensy bit dishonest in susbtituting the word 'crusades' for 'magick' in your quote from my earlier post. I am most definitely not suggesting we debate Joe's ludicrous notion that 'the time is at hand'. What I mean is we discuss the kind of stuff we discussed before Joe came along, and try and educate him in what it is we're doing. If it's too much for him, as I say, I suspect he'll toddle off and leave us alone.
 
 
ciarconn
21:36 / 16.01.03
Food for thought. When this forum was getting organized, and almost got into a groupal activity with serious consequences in the real world, some disruptive influences appear (be it in the form of trolls or false prophets) and everybody gets started, aggressive, and the groupal coherence goes to hell. Who benefits out of this disruptive influence? Why have magickians had always problems to do team-working? (Particularly cross-style) Do magickians have always big egos? Why is it so hard to simply dismiss these disruptive influences and go on?

Something to meditate on. When someone appears claiming to be a teacher/Sensei/guru/academic/theoric, everybody gets offended, angry. There might be something to learn about this. Maybe our egos (as mage/witch/magickian/etc) are so big we can’t tolerate someone claiming to be better than us. Maybe our personal importance (which contaminates our ficsuit) is so strong that we prefer to follow with our little world of little magick experiments and hipersigils and totems and drugs etcerera (but I wont get, at least now, into the matter of the egos of those who claim to be teacher/Sensei/guru/academic/theoric: those who really are do not need to proclaim it). Why is there so little tolerance between magickians of different currents? Even more, why is there so little tolerance from magickians to those in other ideological areas (exact and social sciences, for example)?

I know I’m gonna get my ass kicked in for this commentaries, but I hope something positive comes out of this… that’s the intention. I am aware that pointing this means that I have an ego big enough to believe that I have the right and power/intelligence to post these ideas. I will work with my ego. I am posting this at the same time in the Chaos-worldwide and in the Barbelith, because the same problems have presented themselves in both “places”. I understand that agression and crisis are some times necessary steps, but one must also try to learn from them.

Norbert Schwartz
 
 
LVX23
22:14 / 16.01.03
In most historical cases that come to mind The Underground has proven quite adept at destroying itself through infighting and bickering, while the System of Control marches confidently forward with cunning organization and single-mindedness.

I've only been in this Forum for a month or so and the most striking thing about it - and the reason I have kept coming back several times a day - is the honesty, helpfulness, and open-mindedness of the people here. And while this perhaps-naive view has definitely been shaken a bit with the ongoing volleys against Joe (who nobody really knows or has any actual FACTS about, and who's only crime seems to be vagueness in revealing himself), I still maintain the belief that this forum is far better than worse, and cling to the giddy hope that this whole episode will fade away and yield to an intelligent and accepting dialog of the Magickal Universe.
 
 
Lionheart
03:23 / 17.01.03
Reposting Haus' post:

I think we should all....just.....calm....down.

Joe is basically the Greenland posse in miniature. He has magick, they have psychic powers. He weakened the Goetia, they weakened the Stronghold. He is protecting the astral plane, they are protecting the children. Both predict grand upheavals, and will continue to predict grand upheavals, citing any catastrophes or wars as evidence of this contention in a manner that some people will find tasteless, which begets flamewar, and so on. In both cases the truth or untruth of these statements is objectively very difficult to prove, but we can make more relevant but also more personal judgements on the relevance to us of what they are saying. Since at best I would be holding coats in any battle on the astral plane, it's a bit of a moot point for me personally.

In the end, the Greenland posse calmed down and everyone largely learned to ignore the bits which were not, in their opinion, worth engaging with, and to respond with a modicum of politeness to anything else. I daresay that Joe, if he sticks around, will probably describe the same irritation-ignoring-acceptance curve. I'm sure that people around here are generally bright enough to make their own decisions about whether his posts are relevant to them. If his behaviour becomes a matter for moderator concern, that's a bit different.
 
 
Mike
10:37 / 18.01.03
"Use what talent you possess: the woods would be very silent if no birds sang except those that sang best."
-Henry Van Dyke

"You point your finger at the moon, the fool stares at your finger."
-Chinese Proverb

"One may understand the cosmos, but never the ego; the self is more distant than any star."
-G. K. Chesterton

"No man's knowledge here can go beyond his experience."
-John Locke

"We dance round in a ring and suppose,
But the Secret sits in the middle and knows."
-Robert Frost

"We should all be obliged to appear before a board every five years and justify our existence...on pain of liquidation."
-George Bernard Shaw

"Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Just walk beside me and be my friend."
-Albert Camus

"If one is master of one thing and understands one thing well, one has at the same time, insight into and understanding of many things."
-Vincent Van Gogh

"We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are."
-Anais Nin

"To be is to be perceived."
-George Berkeley

"If you want to be happy, be."
-Leo Tolstoy

Just a few relevant quotes taken from The Book of Fools at http://mike.jtbc.net/fools.htm
 
 
Seth
15:01 / 19.01.03
I'm getting flashes of David Brent conducting appraisals, Evy. Repeating Wyrd's question: "What are you trying to say?"
 
  
Add Your Reply