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Worlds within and personal mytholgies

 
 
cusm
14:27 / 15.01.03
Illmatic from Its time To Learn:

I think this is because Joe has quite a powerful internal magicial universe - which he accepts the objective reality of - and expects everyone else to do so to. I will post something longer about this later (providing I can be bothered).

This is possible the nicest way to call someone crazy I've ever seen, but more so is the start of what may be an important topic. As magickians, we all to a certain extent create a personal mythology, a subjective reality that we live in. It may be full of dieties or spirits that speak to us, we may be fantastical creatures like dragons, elves or angels in disguise as mortal flesh to carry out our work, we may even be a part of an ancient conspiracy that gives our work meaning, or we may have beaten Alister Crowley in a game of cribbage as a part of our personal magickal initiation process. We all do this to some extent, I suspect. I know I do. Its a tool for magickal advancement of a sort, as we try to live up to an ideal self within, or impress the magickal reality we live in on others to make it more real in this world.

Sometimes however, we might take it too far, as Joe is accused of. But is his crime merely not knowing when To Keep Silent? What is the validity of worlds within, and how do you use them? I'd like to hear more on this one.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
15:03 / 15.01.03
This is a really interesting thread topic. I think that existing within a 'powerful internal magickal universe' is a vital aspect of successful magickal practice. If a magician is guilty of this, then as far as I'm concerned they're on to a good thing. I reckon your magic is bound to work a whole lot better if you genuinely believe with all of your being that you have astounding powers. This is a desirable state of mind for the practice of magick. It also makes you completely nuts by a lot of peoples standards.

However I think the key phrase to this is 'walking between worlds'. A successful magician should be able to move easily between his or her 'craziness' and a state of mind more in-line with that of the dominating culture that they inhabit. Both of these head spaces are probably best considered as possible options, with neither one of them being thought of as more 'real' than the other. They are just different modes of processing received sensory material, and either one can be fully adopted depending on the circumstances.

In one of Jan Fries books he makes some interesting points about the word 'Hexen' and it's derivation from 'hedge sitter' - meaning one who can mediate the barrier between the village and the wilderness outside, which is a nice metaphor for shamanistic practice.

Will try and write more on the subject later
 
 
Sebastian
16:05 / 15.01.03
Malidoma Patrice Some' (1994), an African Dagara shaman, remarks, "Nothing can be imagined that is not already there in the inner or outer worlds" (p. 233)

During his lengthy initiation, Some' knew that this procedure would prepare him to live “as if I were in a dream in which worlds collided and different realities confronted one another....The contrast between this state of mind and what I had been accustomed to...was the same as the difference between liquid and solid. It seemed to me that Dagara knowledge was liquid in the sense that what I was learning was living, breathing, flexible, and spontaneous. What I was learning made sense only in terms of relationship. It was not fixed, even when it appeared to be so....By contrast, I could see that the Western knowledge I had been given had the nature of a solid because it is wrapped in logical rhetoric to such a degree that it is stiff and inflexible. The learning one gets from a book, from the canons of the written tradition, is very different from the living, breathing knowledge that comes from within, from the soul....Could one reality contradict another? What kind of new reality was I being introduced to? What is reality predicated upon?” (p. 185).

Some', M.P. (1994). Of water and the spirit: Ritual, magic, and initiation in the life of an African shaman. New York: Tarcher/Putnam

Excerpted from: Stanley Krippner, The Construction of Reality in "Waking Life" and "Dreaming Life"


Italics mine.

Each of us lives in a universe that is being invaded from dozens of beings from another universes. Those alienous "beings" are precisely the people we take for granted are just living in the same universe we are. They are not.
 
 
Stone Mirror
16:16 / 15.01.03
But is his crime merely not knowing when To Keep Silent?

Not at all: it's consistently demonstrating completely egregious cluelessness. In no instance has "Joe" shown the least bit of knowledge other than knowing the names of a few types of divination and the titles of a few books by Crowley.

As I commented elsewhere, if Joe is an "ippssissimus", or even a probationer, then I'm Nicholas Flamel, 600 years old, nine feet tall and made entirely of yttrbium. The Weekly World News is better written and more believable.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
16:22 / 15.01.03
I find, as I get older (mid-40s creeping up) that I'm less interested in perpetuating the personal myth of having amazing powers. To be honest, I found that idea to be too seductive, especially when it comes to overlooking what would be otherwise obvious limitations & short-comings, particularly in terms being caught up in "the leaden vices of Malkuth" as my qabalistic tutor once put it. So I feel that my magical universe works for me, and any stuff that pops up from the astral is primarily about my relationship with it. If others want to pop in and share a moment or too, that's great. Really, the vagaries of astral experiences is something I still don't have my head fully around, and I'm not sure that I ever will. Or want to.

More later, perhaps.
 
 
Papess
18:10 / 15.01.03
There is the matter of the generally agreed upon, "real world". Some things have to be kept to yourself since they are not a part of shared reality.

And, I was given a demonstration just now:

Just before I went to post, a very large grey being came and sat next to me. I was startled, I asked hir to tell me who ze was. Ze was clearly upset but not angry, that I did not recognize hir. Then, these noises come from the mango I put on my altar last night, like slurping noises. Apparently, I just came face to face with Transducer.

Okay, I saw ze, not materialized in our shared reality, but in astral form. Now the only reason that I believe I actually saw who I had seen is ze doesn't look like how I thought they might, so this is not my fabrication. I am actually a little stunned by the whole thing.

Anyway...

Sometimes in tantric practices, such as deity generation and assuming the godforms can lead to an unhealthy belief that one is the deity. Now, actually this is good practice, you _want_ to become that deity if you are doing tantric practice. Things start to get weird if you go around telling people about this though. Let's face it, if you really are the deity you do not need to announce it. Green Tara doesn't have to go around confirming her Green-Tara-ness by telling everyone who She is.

Being able to "walk between worlds" probably takes a whole lot more sanity than just dealing with one reality.

Sometimes, on certain drugs, the layers of realities gets thin and one reality spills into another, and you and your stoned mates may even share that experience together, but ya keep yr mouth shut with the normals cause they won't get it. At least with the drugs you have an excuse for your behavior. Lest they start talking about this.

Magicians have to be very careful around normals.

I have my own personal myth. It is a bizzarre tale and I may tell it one day, but really why would I tell you unless you were a part of my personal myth? That is what makes it personal, as in not for everyone else.

Let's say, hypothetically of course, that in my myth, I am ...hmm, Promethea. Well, I read the comics and live her life by immersing myself in it and fantasizing mtself as her. This is all healthy untill I try to convince someone else I am her or start making up crap so I fit the Promethea mold. I can be anything, be anywhere and call myself whatever in the astral (but there are some rules here, I cannot formulate) but if try to manifest it, it will seem ridiculous unless of course, I really was Promethea.

Like in alot of traditions, I think you have to be recognized by another enlightened being in order to make public statements about how enlightened you may be. But then, if you were, you wouldn't really want to go and do that now, would you?

BTW: I am not suggesting that in order to be enlightened one has to be recognised, I am saying that in order to make such claims, one has to be recognized by another enlightened being. It is like guru-certification.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
09:11 / 16.01.03
May, some good points raised here.

Being able to "walk between worlds" probably takes a whole lot more sanity than just dealing with one reality.

I'd say that the ability to 'walk between worlds' is almost an essential qualification for a magician. The 'head spaces' as GL put it are different modes of experience, and they complement each other in that learning in one feeds learning in the other. We go forth and pull down the fire from heaven, which in turn, allows us to tread lightly upon the earth.

Like in alot of traditions, I think you have to be recognized by another enlightened being in order to make public statements about how enlightened you may be. But then, if you were, you wouldn't really want to go and do that now, would you?

This is where peer-recognition comes into play. You may be accepted as a magus to your mates, but when you move out of that primary network of relationships, in all likelyhood you will find that other people are operating under different criteria for accepting status valuations. One can see this working (or not, as the case may be) in hierarchical magical orders - the grade structure (ideally) ensures that all participants have a common set of criteria for evaluating magical proficiency, status, etc. Of course that's not the whole story - there's probably a lot of other stuff going on which contributes to the perception of shared status - being friends with the 'right' people, etc. The problems can start if one tries to carry over the high status one might have acquired in one group, to another. The occasional calls for systems of 'accreditation' for high priestesses etc., are an attempt to get around this, but I don't think we'll ever see a situation where occultists can appear in the midst of a group and figuratively whip out the magical equivalent of say, Microsoft Networking Certification (at least I hope not).

Also, regarding your 'making public statements about enlightenment' bit, I feel it's rather akin to fighting - the real 'hard cases' are those people who rarely advertise the fact of their 'hardness' and are actually rather quiet and unassuming, and don't have to go around spilling other people's pints.

Since you mention the Tantric tradition, it's worth recalling that the many different sects and cults often resorted to debate (and sometimes actually biffing each other) in order to settle doctrinal disputes.
 
 
Papess
19:20 / 16.01.03
Thanks, Absence of Gravitas.

Personally, I feel that if one has had the Experience of the Divine, one would be suitably humbled by that experience. Think about it: there is you, then there is the entire...

cosmos


Perhaps it is after the peak of such an experience fades, and we are simply remembering it, that the ego kicks in, realises the profundity of the experience and latches onto it as some proof of self-importance. Egos love self-importance.

To truly be enlightened, from my perspective anyway, one would continually have go back to that Place of Divinity (not an actual place that I am aware of BTW) and remember that awe and wonderment, that feeling of utter preciousness and insignifcance at the same time - thus keeping ego in check and training oneself to remain in that state, in that moment...in the moment
 
 
Papess
23:28 / 16.01.03
To truly be enlightened, ...


I meant, To truly become enlightened,


oops.
 
 
Seraphim
07:05 / 17.01.03
I just had to post this here...

-- taken from the Unknown Armies RPG site

ZOMBIES: THE UNSUNG REVOLUTIONARIES

The brain is a symbiotic parasite - but some (much maligned) individuals have found a way to break free of it's tyrannical influence!

Why is it that some creatures get along perfectly fine without brains and some don't? And also, why is it that the brain always has that oh-so-convenient protective shell of bone for every animal that has it? And why is it that the sensory organs are always mounted in such a way that the point of view is from the brain's perspective?

Well try this idea on for size: Maybe the brain is acutally a symbiotic parasite, possibly even extraterrestrial in origin!
There was a time when all the native lifeforms of earth were all without brains, then all of a sudden creatures with brains started popping up. Usually it was the creatures with the roboust bodies that got brains, so perhaps the reason this occured was because the brains had weak, probably invertebrate bodies and wanted to trade up.

As I mentioned, it was a symbiotic relationship, because brains have a superior ability to process sensory input and store useful information for later. At first it would have been fairly crude, with the brains making connections with the soft tissue and nervous systems of creatures they worked with.

Eventually, somwhere down the track, brains developed the ability to drastically alter the physiology of the creatures they worked with, so that they could ride in rather than on their partner ceatures.
This works with the extraterrestrial origin theory, as brains could in fact be aliens with biotechnology far superior to our own...so while we are busy building cars and helicopters and spaceships to ride about in, the brains just saw about adapting what nature had created for their own use.

Eventually it got to the point where many creatures were born with a brain inside them as a functioning vital organ, which was much more efficient than each brain attatching itself to a host. In fact, by now the symbiotic relationship is so strong that those creatures who are born with brains can no longer function without them, due to control of vital homeostasis processes. This was probably intentional, as the brains early on would have ensured 'loyalty' by threatening a host with extreme pain or even death through heart palpitations.

Of course, this isn't a hard and fast rule. Remember zombies?
They've got no brains, and what are they always trying to eat? That's right - Brains!
Zombies are arguably the best representation of humanity's natural state in modern times. Somehow or other they have managed to break the cycle of bondage to our brains that we are all born with, and they're pissed off and out for revenge!

So if you see a zombie, feel free to gladly let him or her eat your brains, because they're actually doing you a great favour.


--

I was thinking of the parasitic-city idea in the Invisibles, together with a little BodyMind philosophy (you know, the classic question of how, exactly, the "soul" and "body" are connected) and the "life originated from Mars"-theory. In creating a personal psycosm, it seems like a pretty groovy idea to speculate in the possibility of a parasitic creature being responsible for
a) separating humanity from it's true nature, which is, basicly, to be the natural "primitive", freed from the shackles of emotion and (too much) thinking
or,
b) that which is responsible for giving us the ability to use magic(k)

What good is this? I don't know really. It ties in a bit with the "Worlds within"-topic; how, if at all, does the subjective reality change the "objective" reality. To me, it seems like each person has the ability to change the percieved reality of others, simply imposing their own reality upon others. Theories of mass-hysteria aside, I've seen some down-to-earth examples of this in my sickly grandmother, who spent most of her life imposing her reality - her "sacrifices" to her family and their "betrayal" in not standing by her (none of which was - in retrospect - "true") - on her children, resulting in (at least) two people with half their lifes wrecked. And this from a person with no "awareness" of this ability.
Same thing with weirdo sects & cults, where seemingly clear-thinking individuals can become swept away with absolutley insane ideas (like... the Waco-incident. Although they were perhaps not too bright to begin with...). Anyway.

So, the factors involved are more based on the person trying to impose the subjective reality, than the subjective reality itself. Of course, the person to which this viral idea is to be inprinted (?) changes the effect, most likely due to a natural status quo (due to an extremly egocentrical reality [fundamentalist?], or due to ego-death [buddhists and - some - magicans?]), or, an awareness of the fact that an inprinting attempt is being made.

If this is true, then;
a) where all living in separate psychosms
b) we can all be affected by other psychosms
c) Joe is not (just) crazy or oblivious - he's just trying to impose his own reality on others (just as, theoretically, I am doing right now)
d) the effect of an Erisian psycho-smartie-handgrenade, "thrown" into a bunch of corporate lawyers could acctually have a positive effect!

Further speculation (while I'm ranting); if there is "extremes" of subjective reality in a group context (in which Joe's situation on this board seems to fit), there must be some form of consensus reality of percieved reality (as with psycholingustics), in which a majority of individuals in a group influence each-other to the extent that their reality becomes the "real" one on the basis of mass, not "truth". And if ideas have mass, it seems likely that all viral ideas are better utilised when carried in form of a symbol that is widely spread among the target group (as with advertising). That could explain why - IMHO - magical work seems to get a better effect when done using symbols that are present in the current situation (use Norse gods when visiting me, use celtic ones in Ireland and use urban legends when doing work in a major city).

I probably covered a lot of "old ground" here, not making myself especially clear, but I hope I'm at least on the right track (topicwise). Will return with other ideas.

- §eraphim.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
10:33 / 17.01.03
Personally, I feel that if one has had the Experience of the Divine, one would be suitably humbled by that experience. Think about it: there is you, then there is the entire...
cosmos


Good point, and one which I believe is very interesting in the light of what cusm said above about trying to live up to an ideal self. My question, at this juncture, is "where does that ideal self come from?" Obviously that ideal is going to change over time, experience, changing beliefs, etc., but there's still the question of out of what material we shape those visions of where we'd like to be as a long-term result of our practice. As a yoof, I immersed myself in Crowley and for a time, thought of him as a magical 'role model' (ignoring, of course, his many undesirable facets). And, going back to what I said earlier regarding status/recognition - I've found magicians tend to acquire beliefs about how people of such-and-such perceived status "should" behave. A friend said to me a while back (complaining of another magician) "X did so-and-so. X is supposed to be an adept. Adepts don't do that sort of thing". And I thought, "says who?" How does this belief arise?
Erm, is that making any sense?

So, back to Experience of the Divine. I've been reading Agehananda Bharati's "The Light at the Center: Context and Pretext of Modern Mysticism" - very out print but well worth tracking down. He characterises 'Experience of the Divine' as the "zero-experience" and makes a rather interesting assertion:

"..the mystic who was a stinker before he had the zero-experience before he had the zero-experience remains a stinker, socially speaking, after the experience. This of course, does not mean that he cannot stop being a stinker; but for such change, he must make efforts of an ethical order, which have nothing to do with his mystical practice."(p53)

If I read Bharati right, he seems to be saying that 'zero-experiences' don't change those who experience them on other levels and to do so requires identity work of another order. Is this a valid perspective, I wonder? Do experiences of the divine, of themselves, impel personal transformation, and if so, has anyone experienced this transition and wants to comment on it?
 
 
Mike
13:17 / 17.01.03
As I see it, we each live in an independant subjective universe, and the overlaps and our communication form what we think of as reality through mutual reinforcement. Everything that we agree on stregthens the concept of 'objective reality'. We determine in relation to 'reality' what is 'true' and what is 'false'. It would be much more fun if we stopped doing this.

What if we totally internalised and utterly accepted the idea that nothing is true and everything is possible. No one would take anything that anyone said or did any more or less seriously than anything that anyone else said or did. It would all be very strange. You'd be left absolutely at the mercy of your own beliefs. Whatever you believed, for better or for worse, would be true for you.
 
 
Sebastian
13:18 / 17.01.03
a) where all living in separate psychosms
b) we can all be affected by other psychosms


Well, that's exactly what I meant above, and that's just why I think its bloody brilliant, not because it shines by itslef. Difference that for me I simply say "UNIVERSES" instead od psycho-cosmos.

To expand a bit more, some Universes are more tiranical than others, they want to absorb/assimilate (read as-simil-ate) those that are different or simply brutally erase them. Others are more "fresh", they let you be.

AND others are meta-universes. They include many of the particular others, even if they are opposing themselves, simply because a meta-universe or meta-mind has trascended the matter of opposites and dissolved, engulfed, boundaries set up by other universes like future and past, ego and not-ego.

Remember, every time you see a person you are actually taking a look to a powerful vortex into another universe to the one you are in, with some basic and obvious similarities, but bear in mind that your common neighboor is actually one of the most powerful vortexes you can find in your own universe leading to another "parallel" one. You would be quite lucky if you find a vortex into a META universe.
 
 
Mike
13:33 / 17.01.03
A practical exercise -

Never tell anyone what you're thinking or doing or what you consider to be true or false. Keep your ideas, plans, opinions, beliefs, etc to yourself.

Whenever anyone tries to share an idea, plan, opinion, belief, etc with you, say whatever you have to say to get rid of them with as little change caused to your belief system or to theirs.

Encourage others to follow the same exercise, especially your friends. Firstly this will mean that they will understand why you seem to be being a little antisocial, and secondly it will give you people to work with on this exercise.

Soon you will begin to realise just how isolated your little universe really is, and you won't see 'reality' in the same way again.
 
 
illmatic
13:51 / 17.01.03
Haven’t contributed to this thread yet, even though I almost started it by default

Seb: Perhaps sanity is allowing space for others subjectiveties (or universes)and recognising that our own are provisional rather than the real, objective truth? Ie. My opinions or mental constructions of other Barb posters may well bear very little to their personalities IRL – perhaps a degree of projection is always going on in communication, even face to face?

I mention this because I felt an interesting parallel could be drawn on the “macrocosmic” level – what I understand by Jihad is a “holy war”, a war of conversion, similar to that practised by extreme elements of Christianity who want to convert everyone(I’ll let someone more knowledgeable of Islam correct me on what is no doubt a mistake interpretation) – that monotheistic refusal to accept that another’s belief might be different from yours. Worth pointing out as an interesting parallel I thought.

Have much more to say, esp. to your point AoG, but not enough time – aaarggh.
 
 
Mike
13:57 / 17.01.03
To expand a bit more, some Universes are more tiranical than others, they want to absorb/assimilate (read as-simil-ate) those that are different or simply brutally erase them. Others are more "fresh", they let you be. - Sebastian

I have just discovered that my own universe is far more 'tiranical' than I thought and that this is the main barrier preventing me from seeing other peoples' universes as clearly as my own.

It appears that most people suffer from this problem but are not aware of it. They project their own reality with enough force that 'fresher' realities are obscured, and even distorted, causing understandable frustration to the person maintaining their 'fresh' reality. It would seem that the less you invest belief in the better, although some of us are not even aware how much we believe. Over the course of our lifetimes we have invested belief in many things, and disinvesting that belief isn't necessarily easy. I am personally finding it very difficult.

For anyone else in this position, the best advice I can offer is to ask yourself firstly, 'What are my rules?' and secondly, after thinking about the first question long enough to realise how stupid your rules are, ask yourself (and don't hold back on the 23), 'Why do I bother enforcing them so much?' / 'Why do I put so much effort into enforcing them?'

As always, please report any experiences.
 
 
Mike
14:08 / 17.01.03
Illmatic, consider: These fundamentalist Christians and their beliefs and behaviours are part of your reality, and don't even exist in some peoples' realities, in other peoples' realities the beliefs and behaviours may be very different.

Where does this leave you?

Everyones' universes interact by a process similar to quantum interference. Your psyche is a microcosm of your universe, and whenever your psyche communicates with another psyche there is a parallel communication of data regarding your universes.

The less voices that make up your psyche (your entire physical and mental form can be thought of as a construct of voices - meditation can help to reduce the number of these voices, many of which are very irritating or even detrimental) the more simple your psyche will be. This will improve your mental and magickal health, sense of peace, wellbeing, etc. At the same time, this will simplify the universe that you project, making you less irritating to others, especially those trying to maintain a much fresher/cleaner/clearer universe, and make you more receptive to other worlds or contacts with other worlds, such as innerworld contacts.
 
 
cusm
15:27 / 17.01.03
In regards to personal universes and psychocosms, this sounds a lot like how memes are described. For example, Christianity is a meme that seeks to dominate all other memes. But as a meme, it is also a universe, and a psychocosm to those living within it. I'm a bit fan of the meme metaphore, and applying it not only to abstract ideas and philosophies, but to people and the realities they live in. Personal memes, if you will. Not for the sake of progressing the meme of the word meme, but in illustration of how the math of memes applies to the ideas here. Our views sometimes seek to gain more life by spreading to others through language. Why then wouldn't our personal mythologies seek the same, being made of the same stuff?
 
 
cusm
15:32 / 17.01.03
experiences of the divine, of themselves, impel personal transformation, and if so, has anyone experienced this transition and wants to comment on it?

I have myself, and seen others do so as well. The answer is no more definitive than "it depends". At the time, the change seems monumental and all consuming. But as it is digested into the rest of your cognitive system, it diffuses in effect. How deeply you are affected once the stimulus of the experience is gone is highly dependent on how much you are willing or able to change, and how congruent that change is with the rest of your psyche (or True Will, as Crowley would put it). The experience is a stimulus, it is not the change itself. However, it can be a reason for the change. If you make changes based upon only that experience, it holds that one must continue to carry that experience within them as validation for their change for that change to continue to be in effect. They must continue to refer back to it as the reason for their actions. That is, to make it religion.
 
 
Seraphim
17:24 / 17.01.03
I’m going to present a lot of ideas here, the tone might suggest that I believe that it’s the truth, in some form, but really – its just ideas (feeling malicious intent sweeping over as the central paradox in fact is that if I’m right, this is just an extension of the idea itself – imposing a psychosm).

Sebastian: Difference that for me I simply say "UNIVERSES"

I feel there's a bit too much side-references in contemporary (meta)physics about the idea of multiple universes, that it seems unnecessary to cloud the issue (further) by using that word, instead of psychosm (or psycosm). Whatever works (or, most suitable explanation in the simplest form).

Sebastian: some Universes are more tyrannical than others, they want to absorb/assimilate (read as-simil-ate) those that are different or simply brutally erase them. Others are more "fresh", they let you be.

That’s a bit of your psychosm seeping through in your choice of words; “tyrannical” as assimilating, “fresh” as letting you be - sounds like the classical “be free”-speech. Just for the sake of “objectivity” we might instead say that the psychosms (or persons, if you think that’s the same thing) have a tendency to either assimilate or integrate.

Generally, I think the problem lies with thinking that your “self” (as in Jungian inner self) is somehow directly connected with your psychosm. Thinking like that makes any and all attempts to change your psychosm a threat to your very existence. The way that threat is dealt with may vary, but the flight or fight-response might have a parallel here. Inability to cope with other psychosms (that with their very existence threaten your own) might thus be an explanation for all the subculture-bashing (as in my [style, music or magic] is better than yours – or the whole “christianite west clashes with muslimite east”-thing)

I think we all “need” realities – to a certain degree. Thus, we also “need” a psychosm. Ego-death is simply the amount of flexibility you possess in the ability to swiftly change your point of view, which might, eventually, become so good that you experience a total loss of “self”, which could be perceived as a rapid “floating” between psycosms. That experience in itself, is something “mere mortals” (without so much psychosmic flexibility) can experience from time to time during meditation.
This also would enable you to become more attuned to other ideas and psychosms, which might, in turn, explain why the “clearer” mind more easily can come in touch with spirits/gods/powers – assuming that my previous hypothesis about the collective unconscious being made up of psychosms has any validity. It’s simply a way of getting in touch with the current thoughtworlds around you. Which brings us to the tricky part about changing other psychosms (via “magic”, in some context).

So, in order to impose a psychosm we need one to begin with. We benefit from ego-death (in some degree), as we can more easily switch “instruments” between each attack (nothing judgemental, really) and also from using the symbols of the psychosm most relevant to our cause. If were changing Lisa’s mind about going to the movies on saturday night, we’ll need to use the appropriate magic-style according to her psychosm. Let’s say she’s catholic – in which case using magic via angels might be more useful than dealing out blasts with the Loa.

Eccentric psycosms (as in being far from the most popular) are more easily manipulated (as the “mass” of psychosms increase the difficulty of changing them), which explains why global workings tend to have little noticeable effect. Also, this introduces a central paradox (and problem) with being a “fundamentalist magician” (as in, self = psychosm), as one is more vulnerable to change (as in, the tree breaks, but the straw bends).

Any comments? Personally, I think the problem with any metaphysical discussion that goes on for too long (like mine) is that it ensnares itself more and more, as it tries to be more and more useful by expanding its frontiers. Which is why Daoism has such an appeal in that it simply defies understanding – and yet is the entire explanation. Like the unsaid word that has all the possibilities in the world, but as it is spoken, gradually succumbs to the process of its own making, rendering it with less and less possibilities, but (perhaps) more usefulness. (Which makes me wonder if the process of slang, as in changing old words into new meanings, is a parallel to magical work with altered psychosms – maybe the whole “meme”-thing comes in handy here?)

- §eraphim, ranting endlessly.
 
 
Wrecks City-Zen
17:57 / 17.01.03
Isn't this what invocation and evocation is all about really? Could it be that "insanity"/"imagination" is the magician's most powerful tool?

I linked this on the "It's time to burn" thread. In case folk's are steering clear from that, allow me to introduce my teacher Lucianna Drake, making hir brief appearance her on the Barb from the Fictionsit: A user's manual thread.
 
 
LVX23
19:17 / 17.01.03
(cool thread)

The human organism is, at it's material core, an animal requiring sustenance. It's foremost role is biosurvival. In most animals biosurvival entails eating, drinking, sleeping, & breeding. Anything that threatens these goals is identified as an enemy and associated with fear and harm (fight/flight).

The advent and evolution of the human neocortex has allowed us to abstract our biosurvival requirements out into ideologies, emotional constructs, philosophies, and other logical and linguistic constructs which, ulitmately, have little to do with eating, drinking, sleeping, and breeding. As our maps of the world around us grew more detailed and more materialistic (sun cycles, farming, material use, tool making, etc...)objective reality became more fixed and more rooted in science and ideology. Newtonian dualism and mechanism established firmly that the world we live in is fixed, much akin to a laboratory experiment, where there is only one answer and it can be rationalized by knowing all the variables and measuring each. This world view is the foundation of the industrial revolution and has informed the collective consciousness of the western world for the last few hundred years.

Enter Einstein. Einstein blew the doors off of mechanism and dualism by stating mathematically that the measurements of the fundamental constants of nature are actually relativistic, not fixed (Theory of Special Relativity), and that spacetime itself is not a fixed Cartesian grid but will warp and bend around massive objects (Theory of General Relativity). This understanding of the relativistic nature of the material universe is the foundation for the information age and has slowly permeated every aspect of human life, including human psychology.

The relevance to this thread is that the Newtonian paradigm created a logical structure in much of western culture which held that there was only one way to view the world, politics, race, religion, god, etc. This has been the foundation of much strife as logic structures began to war in order to assert themselves as the dominant paradigm or explanation. "Christianity is the one true faith. You're a nice person but I'm sorry you're going to hell because you don't believe what I do".

The Reletavistic paradigm (especially in accordance with ideas from Quantum Mechanics and Chaos Theory), which is slowly filtering into the commom psychology, allows that objectivity is ultimately impossible and that ontological theories wil inevitably fall short of any accurate description of complex systems. Extending these ideas into psychology (which hard physicists would frown on, but I feel it is exactly how the mind evolves and how science filters into awareness), Relativism implies that each observer creates Hir own universe, Hir own reality, and that no one reality is any more valid than another. "Oh, you're a Christian? Yes it's a very interesting theory and it has some relevance to my practice. I however, resonate more with the Muslim philosophy. Would you like to have tea?".

So as Newtonian Dualism is slowly replaced by Quantum Relativism as the foundation of western logic, there should evolve more acceptance of diverse ontologies and philosophies, less identification with the Self as Ego, and more intuitive understanding that Objectivity is really a consensual agreement on how to perceive the world around us. Then your ontology becomes an excercise in imagination - How do I chose to view the world (today)? I want my universe to be magickal and malleable, where Aragorn and Sauron do battle, and Love prevails, while servitors and egregores mediate my requests to deities, who table them for discussion in Olympia or Valhalla or Heaven or wherever.

In some ways TV and Film are hastening this transition into user-created realities. There are so many, just change the channel and you're living someone else's life! But I digress...
 
 
Mike
20:13 / 17.01.03
Could it be that "insanity"/"imagination" is the magician's most powerful tool? - ...rex

From Living Magical Arts: Imagination and Magic for the 21st Century by R.J. Stewart:

"More nonsense has been written about Magic than about any other subject; but this is not surprising as Magic is intimately linked to our imaginations... Magic is basically an artistic science in which we control our imagination to cause changes in the outer world."
 
 
Sebastian
10:49 / 20.01.03
Just for the sake of “objectivity” we might instead say that the psychosms (or persons, if you think that’s the same thing) have a tendency to either assimilate or integrate

Seraphim, this is bloody literal. You don't need to say "objective", becuase its a bit misleading. Maybe you can say "agreed". Just think about this. You can sit down and explain to yourself or to a little brat everything you know about the universe you live in, from evolution to the stars and the deep seas, volcanoes, jungles, the moon, galaxies, parallel realities, dreams, mommy and daddy, birth, gestation, whatever, and then go and ponder what you have experienced empirically, which is also part of your universe, like your home, your journeys, your shags, your dick.

Well, simply said, I don't live in the same one. Nor anybody around you. Just because we don't share the same brain, nor the same eyes, ears, skin, and guts. Where "is" all that universe you just described?? Can you point at it?? Is it you that you touch it or your fingers?? Even if you beg for it to be "objective", I guarantee I won't be seeing, touching or smelling the same things, although I will "agree" that a bulky gray blot on four legs seemingly charging towards us can be "synesthesized" to the phoneme "'raInOU", which hopefully your ears will make you listen as "rhino" and extract the same "synesthesized" meaning. And lets move away of it if you don't mind.
 
 
Sebastian
12:01 / 20.01.03
Could it be that "insanity"/"imagination" is the magician's most powerful tool?
Magic is intimately linked to our imaginations... Magic is basically an artistic science in which we control our imagination to cause changes in the outer world.


Well, I would say that actually "imagination" happens to be the most vulnerable aspect of the non-practitioner. I commented on this line of thought in the Meditation thread. Once the opposition of imagined vs. real is trascended, or integrated, or simply put aside and enacted upon, the magickian can only but bolt himself beyond the "empirical" riddle of the "universe". The much commented path of awe and uncaniness begins here. Otherwise it begins the day you shout "NURSE!!" from your bed at the Intensive Care Unite.

Fact is, the non-magickian is perpetually haunted by the overpowering intuiton that he is affected by the "imagined", and fails utterly to grasp the "how" of it, no matter how he tries to get at it within the boundaries of his mind. The magickian's mind, or universe, has trascended a pair of opposites that other minds/universes have not. At its best, this is progressive, of course, and thus I wish it would be for all of us. The magickian lives in a universe that is a bit more inclusive than others that oppose and exclude, and regards and operates on them as they are particular cases of his own.
 
 
Seraphim
06:20 / 23.01.03
Sebastian: Seraphim, this is bloody literal. You don't need to say "objective", becuase its a bit misleading.

You've just experienced the no-objectivity-speech.
Please remain inside the vehicle.

I'm sorry if it seemed like I actually believe in objectivity. I don't. However, I do believe that since we all are influenced by our own relative understanding of the english language in a modern interpretation, and since a lot of people working magic reads up on a lot of other subjects, it seemed more useful to use a vocabulary for psychosms that integrates (nota bene) with the vocabulary for contemporary cultural analysis (which might, in this context, be considered a more "mundane" approach to psychosms).
But hey, like I said; I'm full of ideas, and, applying Sturgeons law to it, we clearly see that it's 90% crud. Was hoping to ignite some other ideas, that's all.

Sebastian: the non-magickian is perpetually haunted by the overpowering intuiton that he is affected by the "imagined", and fails utterly to grasp the "how" of it, no matter how he tries to get at it within the boundaries of his mind.

It seems a bit narrow to separate the world (uh, universe?) into two categories, non-magicians and magicians. In fact, isn't the prime weapon of all dominating religions the power of a sturdy psychosm that tries to fit everything in position, with specific attention devoted to locking imaginary experiences (or invented imaginary symbols) into an understandable form? Christians, for example, can use the will of God, power of divine intervention and the ever-useful Angel and Demon symbols to explain things above normal perception, within the boundaries of his mind. Other religions/thoughtsystems have other symbols, more or less useful (from a magicians point of view), but essentially, most of them have some relation to the use of imagination, as well as basic magical tools.
So, in what way is it useful to define this magician you are discussing?
Isn't the ability to handle magical experiences more related to the individual's ability to use tools (like "ordinary" religious tools, meditation and prayer) to achive a desired effect, than whether or not ze adheres to the magical paradigm?
In that case (assuming the definition has little to do with the labeling of your current thoughtsystem), I totally agree with your point.

- §eraphim, doesnt really understand half of what he's saying.
 
 
Sebastian
11:31 / 23.01.03
Great feedback Seraphim, you love semantics, don't you? Allow me to develop a bit on your question.

Seraphim: So, in what way is it useful to define this magician you are discussing?

Merely, for this discussion and statement, I refer to the non-magickian as he who consistently deletes of his experience/mind/universe whatever challenges the linear-common-sensical-hard-fact-science paradigms, the guy that has an OBE and then goes to the neurologist to have an anti-epileptic drug prescribed, the SKeptiCK above all who is actually an agent of securing plain hard-stone ObjecKtivitY and trusts the NASA, Carl Sagan and Steven Hawkins, the guy who looks for answers at www.skepdic.com or at CSICOP and is satisfactorily infected with them and starts disseminating those bore-fucked memes, in sum, he who already knows everything there is to know about a unique plain universe in which the best thing that can happen is to become a millionaire and then die at a luxurious hospital of disseminated prostate cancer after having salmon canapés for dinner.

Since you mention religion, note that the guy above may be very well versed in one, in fact, he may need it and love it, and even have it integrated somehow into his mind/universe. I would die of boredom if I start developing on this here, but just ask any skeptic why the hell they go to mass if the do and you'll get a fair example of how they "lock" their "imagination".

Seraphim: Isn't the ability to handle magical experiences more related to the individual's ability to use tools (like "ordinary" religious tools, meditation and prayer) to achive a desired effect, than whether or not ze adheres to the magical paradigm?

Yes, agreed, fuck the paradigms, challenge them, crash them. Gotta go now.

PS: a bit later now, couple of situations solved. We need the paradigms. We have to get them in order to experience our own mind/universe, but we must never forget we are actually within one, ont that has its sometimes rather thick and secure boundaries, and also its most promising thin portions that'll suck us out of it, as soon as we stick our fingers in the right place.
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
21:11 / 23.01.03
tendency to either assimilate or integrate.

Hmm.. there is more like three possitions/attitudes: attack, avoid or approach.

Useful vocabulary, nicked from something by Robert Anton Wilson.

etic reality: The "real" "objective" world. No one sees this. eTic The reality
emic reality: The perceived universe. What you or I see and understand. eMic My reality.
 
  
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