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Magical secrecy

 
 
illmatic
08:25 / 14.01.03
Following on from Evy's points in the "Magick" thread - I'd like to ask how people feel about "magicial secrecy" and the discussing their magicial work/experiences on a open forum like this. Perhaps this is one of the "talking about it" points that Evy was getting at? Magic is probably one of the things I can be most secretive about - yet I spend a fair amount of time yapping about it online - how do other people feel about this.

Also, there was a thread somewhere discussing "to know, to dare, to will and to keep silent" - anyone got a link?
 
 
trouser the trouserian
09:14 / 14.01.03
Secrecy can be valuable at times - it can also be rather restrictive. I spent some years in a group which was very secretive - member's weren't allowed to discuss magic outside the group, wear magical adornments, have books on display, and if one was approached by an 'outsider', one was supposed to deny any knowledge or interest in the subject. Okay, I didn't know any better - the people who ran the group were amongst the very few 'serious' magicians I'd encountered at that time, and I was very much 'under their spell'. Thinking back on it, this heavy secrecy trip ensured that I only had access to the knowledge/opinions etc., that the leader(s) thought was significant, and that I could only do stuff which they approved of - which wasn't in itself restrictive - but that they formed the only peer group for interpreting my experiences. It sounds bad, but I had some amazing experiences with that group - but in the end, it was too tight, too crazy, and I needed space to find my own path. One of the first things I did was drop the secrecy number and start talking to people - friends mostly, about the stuff I was into. I was amazed and heartened by the warmth & positive feedback this brought back, and I haven't really stopped talking since.
 
 
illmatic
13:48 / 14.01.03
Thanks AoG for a very open and interesting response – I think you’ve covered well some of the negative aspects of magical secrecy. I would add that maybe keeping all your magick locked up like this, might lead to a lack of contact with real life, to work solely on the astral with somewhat delusive results (as evidenced recently elsewhere on this board). Would magical openness be a particularly chaos magick thing, I wonder? With that urge to simplify and disseminate ideas – seems in opposition to some of its predecessors – even Crowley was pretty obscure. I’m going out on a very tenuous limb here, but could we link it with the birth of DTP and stuff like that? After all, a lot of early Chaos stuff was small press and some of it seemed to spread through the zine network of the late 80’s?

Maybe I’m making that up – never mind. Anyway, does any one thing there are any positive aspects to magical secrecy? Consider these quotes:

”People simply shouldn’t know about what magick you intend to perform, because if they do know your sacred act is leaking away into chattering profane triviality even before it’s started It’s taking an oath in an atmosphere of frivolity, it loses it’s significance...”

“Having such a secret creates a nearly unbearable sense of tension ... this tension represents “energy” or “power” that must be channelled into the work and not simply allowed to dissipate in causal conversation The element of the personality that has a need to tell is motivated by a need for acceptance and interaction with others. It is in no way part of the motivation to do the work”


Both taken from Joel Birococ’s Kaos Magazine.

So what do people think? Is there any truth in this or is it simply a load of superstitious old nonsense? It strikes me that a difference between the sense of openness that AoG is talking about above is the fact he/she eventually found secrecy an encumbrance in defining a magical sense of identity – this occurs after the acts themselves, as it were, whereas what these two correspondents are talking about is a sense of secrecy before specific rituals. Also, the state of “tension” referred to above reminded me of trying to forget a sigil, forcing it out of one’s conscious mind so it manifests in the real world.

Most of all, if you feel there is anything in the idea of magical secrecy – and I’m not saying there is, how do you square that with chatting away about making on a open forum bulletin board? I’ve noticed that a lot of regulars in this forum (including me most of the time) don’t talk about the specifics of what they are doing, at that moment in time - though thee are plenty of expections to that rule - normally discussions are kept a lot broader, answering questions, exchanging opinions, that sort of thing.

Any thoughts?
 
 
gravitybitch
14:16 / 14.01.03
I think that if you're talking about individual works, silence about the specifics may well be inportant. Otherwise, there's going to be at least the wisp of the idea floating around in the back of your head - "I wonder what Frater Q will think when I tell him about this??"

It's a distraction in and of itself, and may lead to you shifting the ritual away from what might be more powerful for you personally towards something that may be more palatable to the people you talk to. (Consider the differences between a truly private diary and a blog...)
 
 
trouser the trouserian
14:25 / 14.01.03
People simply shouldn’t know about what magick you intend to perform, because if they do know your sacred act is leaking away into chattering profane triviality even before it’s started It’s taking an oath in an atmosphere of frivolity, it loses it’s significance...

Whilst I feel this kind of argument has some merit, it really depends how one views the art of conversation. Throwing around ideas within the context of a group of peers can really get the old 'energised enthusiasm' going like nothing else. Brainstorming and so forth can really be stimulating, exciting one's passion for magick. Boards such as Barbelith are doing an excellent job of continuing the classical method of the stimulation of critical dialogue:

"Let us examine the question, dear friend, and if you make any objection while I am speaking, make it and I will listen to you." Socrates
 
 
gravitybitch
14:34 / 14.01.03
Part 2:
Here in the "Ghetto," it seems like most of the specific questions come from folks relatively new to magickal practice. Discussions about group practice, like Peace Mango and Gek, pretty much define "group practice" - and there isn't a particular need for secrecy in this community on that level, since we're more or less assuming that people joining the discussion are going to have some understanding of general principles and respect for other folks' beliefs and practices. Something of a common knowledge base or shared vocabulary...

The other thing that seems to generate a lot of discussion is individual ritual to have public effects - like taking down the DC sniper of peace workings. Again, I think this is helpful, to downright necessary. Personally, I don't have the breadth of vision to be aware of a lot of the possible problems with a ritual aimed at doing something for/about a large-scale "problem" and would go looking for feedback first.
 
 
Papess
14:38 / 14.01.03
I beleive a certain amount of secrecy is necessary when involved in magickal process. I agree with "People simply shouldn’t know about what magick you intend to perform, because if they do know your sacred act is leaking away into chattering profane triviality even before it’s started It’s taking an oath in an atmosphere of frivolity, it loses it’s significance...”"

I entirely believe this but when we discuss stuff here it generally is not active workings we talk about and if there are people who talk about it, I am sure they do not give all information required to piece everything together. I mean, I don't and I am quite open in discussions about my beliefs and practice but if I am in the middle of an active working, I ain't tellin' ya what I am doin'!

Talking about magick is fine IMHO, revealing tips, techniques, beliefs even visions and dreams can be helpful for one another. One should never reveal everything though, this is about The Great Mysteries after all. One has to make their own boundries, have their own sacred space no one else can enter, a place not effected by another's mental projections.

Tried to do a search for that Know, Will, Dare and be Silent thread...nuthin, nada
 
 
illmatic
14:54 / 14.01.03
Perhaps that thread is following it's own advice - esp. with the fourth of it's clauses!
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:55 / 14.01.03
I think the issues around this are more complex than a question of 'to talk or not to talk', and it really depends on a persons reasons for secrecy.

In the example posted above, I think you have a situation where people are 'hoarding knowledge' - in the sense of having special secret knowledge and information which makes them feel elite and more enlightened. This, in my opinion, is a misunderstanding of the 'to keep silent' aspect of the magicians green cross code. Particularly now that so much information on magick is easily available over the web, it's just plain silly to adopt this attitude of secrecy with regards to your 'mysterious practices'. Unless you're specifically interested in creating an aura of mystery around yourself, which I suppose could have its magickal advantages for certain things.

However I do think that there are several distinct situations where secrecy concerning what you're doing is a valuable and important aspect.

Personally, there's certain aspects of what I do that I consider to be between me and the spirits. It's not my place to go talking about stuff that is private to me and the spirits, in the same way that it's not my place to go talking about stuff that's private between me and any other individual. To bring back the Mafia Don analogy from another thread, it would be the magickal equivalent of somebody running round town shooting their mouth off about the favour that Don Satanico is doing for them. It's liable to be taken as a betrayal of confidence and could conceivably have a degree of cosmic 'Omerta' attached to it depending on the personality you're dealing with.

Also, I often find that telling a load of people about something (particularly a large number of strangers, such as on forums like barbelith) can break the charge of a working somewhat. The power behind something is dispersed a little everytime I discuss it with someone. I think this is partly weird superstition (which can be an interesting magickal tool/mechanism in itself) and partly connected to the same process observed by chaos magicians of ensuring that you 'forget' a sigil after charging. I think you could make a valid comparison between the expected results of obsessing over the details of a sigil immediately after charging, and the results of discussing your entire magickal practice in great detail with anyone who will listen. I wouldn't discuss the intricacies of a piece of writing I'm working on for similar reasons, as the more I talk about it, the less powerful it feels to me.

I think another valid reason for secrecy is its use as a method for circumventing the ego trap that I think all magicians are probably susceptible to. I think that everyone who does magick tends to think that practising magick is pretty damn cool, to some degree or other. There's always the temptation to name drop the fact that you were summoning the Great Old Ones in the haunted woods the other night, and one of your mates became possessed and gave prophetic messages about pirates and ninjas. It's the sort of thing that gives you a buzz, and the sort of thing that you naturally want to tell someone about, just as you would if you had accomplished an insane snow boarding feat or beaten one of your martial arts instructors whilst sparring.

However, as natural a compulsion as this is, it can act as a bit of a slippery slope and you can very easily get caught up in a situation where you find yourself doing specific forms of magick because it sounds impressive and makes you feel cool. Which I think is OK for a while, but ultimately leads to a bit of a rut where all your magick starts to revolve around ego gratification. Therefore the use of secrecy in these circumstances can get you around this potential conundrum, in that you may be doing mad cool weird stuff every weekend, but you don't ever tell anyone about it and are therefore doing it solely for its own sake and its own merits.

It was a combination of the above which made me unable to post in the magick forum on barbelith for well over a year. However, as I really enjoy barbelith and the social interaction with interesting minds that I get from the magick forum, I've since endeavoured to find a way of talking and writing about magick without ever actually making reference to any of the specifics of my own practice or discussing my way of doing things. And I've found that it's generally possible for me to talk about magick in such a way that it draws on my emotional responses to practising magick but doesn't go into any of the details of practice. To be honest, my main area of working is such an enormous subject and I'm such a complete beginner in comparison to it, that I've got no right whatsoever to go about discussing any aspect of it on an internet message board. However, I can talk about the general processes at work in magick and my own emotional responses to them, without really mentioning my own work, and I reckon it's probably these common processes and responses that are more likely to be of interest to other magicians anyway.
 
 
Rev. Jesse
15:06 / 14.01.03
I take a different stance on this topic. I don’t see secrecy in my work primarily as a storehouse of power or as a vulnerability to be exploited, although it can be both of those things. Instead, to me the admonition to “keep silent” applies primarily to the mass of idiots in the world (in the whole world, like the workplace, socially, not the magic community) who would spite you just because they know you are a magician. Even in the most liberal and enlightened culture of the UK and the US, there are people who will still discriminate against you for being a magician.

The advice to keep silent is a defense mechanism for the world outside of magic for when you never know which authority figure or which peer is a dyed in the wool born again Christian, hellbent (as it were) on stamping out all Satanic activity in her realm of influence.

That having been said, I think “keep silent” can also refer to the serenity and calm of mediation as well.

-Jesse
 
 
Rev. Jesse
15:10 / 14.01.03
(hmmm... I may have edited that a wee bit poorly)

What I'm saying is, don't go blabbing that your are a magician is every dang-fool you meet, you'll get in trouble.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
15:54 / 14.01.03
Gypsy

You raised some good points.

...it's just plain silly to adopt this attitude of secrecy with regards to your 'mysterious practices'

I couldn't agree more. That particular situation was pre-net, and at the time, I'd encountered no more than half-a-dozen people who were 'seriously' practising magick, and I hadn't really concentrated on developing much in the way of a discriminatory faculty.

There's always the temptation to name drop the fact that you were summoning the Great Old Ones in the haunted woods the other night, and one of your mates became possessed and gave prophetic messages about pirates and ninjas.

Well, I've definitely fallen into that trap on several occasions, until it was politely pointed out to me that this is the magical equivalent of what Stephen Potter calls "oneupmanship" and demonstrates insecurity rather than anything else. Not something I particularly 'wanted' to hear, but I certainly 'needed' to hear it.

I also agree regarding your point about talking dissipating the charge of a working. I've certainly had the experience of "talking an idea to death" on a number of occasions. I guess it's yet another example of something you develop a 'feel' for as you go along - when to talk, and when to shut up.
 
 
cusm
19:25 / 14.01.03
One's magick is a sensitive issue. If you know someone's magick, you know their head, and can potentially use this against them. But at the same time, if someone knows your magick, it is shared, and that magick lives between you both. It is strengthened by being reinforced by multiple people who accept its reality. So, while one may wish to hide their workings to protect themselves, sometimes one shares their work so that it may be strengthened and gain validity in the minds of others.

I do more the later myself. The more I can talk about what I do with others who share this view, the more easily I can do those things. Though there are still many practices I do not share at all, or only share with certain people I trust. In this way, I keep the "keep silent" part, by only sharing where it is safe to do so.

On the societial front, we no longer live in a world where you'll be burned as a heretic if you talk about your magick. So, that last edict is less necessary than it was in the past. However, if you go on about your servitors in front of the wrong folks, you can still end up locked int he cushy white room. So, some vigilance is ever needed in this area.
 
 
LVX23
23:24 / 14.01.03
Illmatic, you mentioned Crowley's obscurity and I think this is a good point of discussion regarding your main question.

While Crowley is often deliberately obscure, he was also much maligned by members of existing "secret" societies (e.g. Golden Dawn)for revealing too much. My impression of his work is that he offers different clues that appeal to different levels of "initiation". There are clues that beginners will recognize, leading them further along to the next level of clues. At each stage of education the clues become more obscure and difficult, often requiring rigorous research and practice to decipher them and gain access to the next level.

In this sence, I believe that a degree of secrecy is essential. For one, it creates a sense of education and requires the development of analytical skils to uncover the mysteries. Such research can provide essential knowledge of the magickal universe, as well as intimate self-knowledge in the process. But perhaps more importantly, levels of secrecy (veils, if you will)help to insulate the initiate from potentially dangerous experiences. You generally don't want to hand the Godhead to any random lout off the streets. They must WORK for it.

This isn't to say, however, that magick shouldn't be discussed, or that common people should be shielded from the information. The texts should remain readily available and enquiring minds should be enkindled towards further development, lest the traditions fade off into obscurity from disuse. The dialectic of magick is also essential to it's evolution (or co-evolution with human society). In order for it to be effective, it must be appealing and applicable to the times. If this weren't so, we'd all be Masons or Templars or some such.

Finally, I think Gypsy made some very good points about the private relationship that any practitioner has with Hir work, and how this relationship can be tainted or diluted (and how the ego can be unnecessarily fed) by sharing too much of it with others.
 
 
FatherDog
15:35 / 20.01.03
In line with what cusm posted...

Part of an evolving magical practice (in my view) is developing (not necessarily formally) your own "Alphabet of Desire", as Spare put it. Magic is very much about symbology, and the details of your workings (what you choose to represent things, what you view as linked or associated) reveals an awful lot about the shape of your head and how you view the world.

Some things about yourself you may not want to discuss with other people, or at least with other people whom you only know to a limited extent.
 
 
hialto
07:43 / 21.01.03
this is my first post on this site, my first post ever, actually, having just gained full access to a computer...i find the topic of secrecy an important aspect of my magickal work lately. as a teenager, i practised 'witchcraft' secretly, soberly, and intently, combining what i could glean from zen buddhism, eco-philosophy, and books on goddess-worship and spell casting. much of what i did and believed was naive, but it worked, and when things got a little too weird i took a break. in my third year of university i was introduced to crowley, chaos magick, mckenna, leary, wilson, morrison, and hallucinogens pretty much simultaneously. for a couple of years i was possessed, energized and ready to talk about it all with just about anyone. there is something to be said for truly feeling that sort of openness. on the other hand, my mouth raced ahead of my brain on more than one occasion, and i either spoke to people i shouldn't have, or spoke about subjects i really knew nothing about from experience. after about three years of doing fairly regular 'magickal' practice, i find i'm coming to enjoy a better relationship with secrecy. there are some that are close to me that are ignorant of something that is important to me. i also have one or two friends that i can discuss anything with. if the occult comes up in everyday conversation, i either say nothing, or just say whatever comes to mind. for myself, i find that this keeps my ego in check, and as was mentioned above, prevents possible unsettling of magickal intent. silence doesn't need to be an ego trip or a sign of fear-it's another tool-sorry if i'm repeating what others have said. as well, the experience of gnosis is ultimately indescribable; language tends to move around the experience without touching it directly-this point spurs me to remember that it is the work(ing) that is important, sort of a shut-yer-yap and hit the bricks kind of thing. i do think it's natural though to desire open communication with those of like mind, whoever they may be...especially in a culture that does not engage in open discussion of 'spiritual evolution', and what may or may not open if one embarks on such a path.
 
 
Devil's Avocado
12:19 / 23.01.03
'..especially in a culture that does not engage in open discussion of 'spiritual evolution', and what may or may not open if one embarks on such a path.'

If we were in a culture that actually *did* openly talk about 'spiritual evolution' I suspect we'd see a dramatic decrease in admittance to mental institutions.

I say this with feeling after seeing how casualty staff acted towards a close friend who had a 3day experience of exstatic bliss last month. They wanted to know what drugs he'd taken, then when the tests came back negative, sedated and sectioned him.

So though 'we no longer live in a world where you'll be burned as a heretic if you talk about your magick' I'm still painfully aware of repercussions due to cultural inhibitions towards the subject.

I feel comfortable sharing information about my practices and experiences with this community as I consider it's members to be 'initiates'. But I wouldn't post details of something I was in the process of doing (unless I needed specific help/advice and could phrase the 'missing part' out of context), untill it was well and truly done to avoid 'leakage'.
 
 
hialto
15:16 / 24.01.03
yeah, i know what you're saying, asa...however, i simply meant that in modern western societies there is no, for lack of a better phrase, popular awareness of such experience-if your friend was in india, for example-they would have known what to 'do' with hir. Or nothing at all would have been done, because the framework for understanding such an experience is there. in the western world, either belonging to a 'good' magickal group or simply having friends who are committed to the work and concerned for eachother is obviously the way to go, in terms of having an open and understanding ear.
as an aside...i don't know how cold it is where the rest of you are, but it's fucking cold here in canada...a minus thirty-five degree celsius bike ride to work awaits me-nasty!
 
 
Mike
15:35 / 24.01.03
It is not true to say that there is no magickal framework in the west. Christianity is a very popular and effective framework. It combines faith, commune, all the key elements of magick, in a simple system that it available to anyone who wants in on it.

However, it is not much help for people who have a different paradigm.
 
 
hialto
22:43 / 24.01.03
i'm a goddess-worshipper me, so perhaps my opinions on the subject are biased against and/or ignorant of mystical christianity. the christians i do know are for the most part born-agains to whom i would never mention my spiritual practices...i've never met anyone who actively practices magick within the christian tradition or uses the christian mythos in their work-though of course there are those who do.
i've been a solo practitioner for some time now, so openness is sort of neither here nor there for me. talk or no talk, there is always the relationship between the worker and the work. however, well, i dunno. a physical training program, properly executed and followed through produces results-which may be readily apparent in a fit body, better reflexes, muscular control, etc. the results of such work are generally rewarded and understood by society. the results of magickal work are much more open to misunderstanding, outright fear,
and can get bogged down in new age gobbledygook. perhaps i'm over-generalizing, but i would say that there are cultures where awareness of more 'subtle' forms of energy and dimensions other than the physical is more prevalent than in this one. take a look at wilhelm reich. they shut him down-perhaps if he'd laid off the mystical overtones inherent in orgone energy they'd have left him alone. or maybe he synthesized a bio-tech for the human organism that was too potent for the power-elite to allow, i don't know. of course, reichian therapy is still around, but my point is this-a bio-spiritual tech like magick will produce results that can sometimes be confusing for the practitioner, let alone 'the wo/man in the street'. perhaps the generation of understanding can only occur in silence, as a kind of temporary barrier against the ego and its network of relationships in the inner/outer worlds.
 
 
hialto
22:51 / 24.01.03
i must apologize to asa. i see now that i misread your posting somewhat. mental evolution? what? me? hahaha...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
21:57 / 25.01.03
I don't discuss magic(k) with anyone... actually I know three people that I talk about it with, one I introduced to the wonders of witchcraft, one I met here and the other knows very little about it but I tell her most things and she gets the general gist of what I'm saying. I never discuss it online and particularly not in this forum and I'm not sure why... perhaps because my approach has always been incredibly instinctual and I find that talking about such things textually makes them intellectual.

About three years ago I did talk about magic online and I found it terribly disappointing, surrounded by Wiccans murmuring Bright Blessings at one another, shaking my head in absolute disgust and feeling their complete lack of power/commitment. That was before I committed myself to one deity and prior to a two year break from the whole thing. I'm incredibly secretive about it, ridiculously so, but most of the time I can't find the words that people understand and it may be related to my own inability to communicate the whole experience. I worry that I will preach about the use of magic - I don't believe it should be used as a tool. The only person that even begins to understand has a relationship with a deity that I suspect is startlingly similar to mine.
 
 
Seth
23:07 / 25.01.03
I don't mind discussing theory, mechanics or methodology - depending on my audience, of course. I'll talk about magick differently with a Christian that I will a Chaote, not so much in terms of what I'm willing to talk about, more the vocabulary I'll use. You'd be surprised at how many Christians are open to esoterica if you just use their terms.

My personal experience is my own, however, and I dislike sharing it. Even in just the last week I gave away too many specifics about an experience, and it's made me feel a bit rotten. I'll do some recapitulation work to rectify that tomorrow. Some of it is just too personal, things which I have difficulty understanding and working through, stuff that illuminates a few too many dark corners in my soul.

Of course, I'll be breaking my own rules when I resume updates to the Barbelith, the Transducer and Global Workings thread. I can't expect other people to post anecdotal evidence if I'm not prepared to myself! Feel free to PM me if you want to contribute anonymously, and I'll paste any comments to the thread myself. That is, if you can trust me
 
 
Quantum
15:01 / 05.02.03
Two things- firstly I agree with most of the above, I think there are many valuable reasons for secrecy regarding magick; it is called the Occult for a reason I suspect. But secondly I think it is important to talk about these things, sometimes to strangers, or else face the dangers of working completely alone.
Example- I trust to coincidence and intuition about who to mention magick to. Met somebody the other day who recommended this site to me, came to post about magical secrecy (specifically) and not only found a thread on it but that the person who told me about Barbelith was the last to post on the thread. Not too spectacular as coincidences go, but enough to affirm my belief that you DO meet people you should talk to about magick.
 
 
mixmage
18:23 / 20.04.04
The Rule of Shadow crosslink.
 
 
XXII:X:II = XXX
19:07 / 20.04.04
This has actually been much on my mind of late, especially because my partner and I have finally gotten around to putting down in print the basic concept and practice of our regular ritual in order to spread the idea to those of our trusted circle, and they to theirs, and so on. I'd discussed with him the idea of submitting this practice for Boy In A Suitcase's upcoming Disinfo book on magicians under 30, yet this, to him, was a bit much and seems to have vetoed it. (The point may be moot: I've no doubt that project has advanced considerably since BIAS first put out the call, perhaps past that which would allow our submission.)

To him, publishing this info on such a wide level not only jeopardizes our activities, but also cheapens it and is antithetical to the idea of playing one's cards close to one's chest in such matters. To me, however, I see this as an opportunity to greatly increase the penetration of our ritual into the collective consciousness, and thus reality, allowing us to effect greater and greater change. I understand his side of it, but I don't think he's tried to see mine. This, however, is just another manifestation of where our personalities schizm, which we are aware of: he is a far more private person, sometimes to the point of damaging exclusion, whereas I am much more extroverted and demonstrative, sometimes to the point of dangerous exposure. Pick your poison.

VJB2
 
 
SteppersFan
12:58 / 21.04.04
Rightly or wrongly, when I was heavily involved in Wicca, I was somewhat irritated by the coven rule that we not discuss a ritual after doing it among ourselves. You could scarcely say "wow that was great!" This seemed strange to me having spent a long time doing other forms of magick previously, where discussing what we'd done had no obvious ill effect. Maybe I was just irritated with the overall sense of being dis-empowered in that particular coven.

I suspect a lot of the imprecations to secrecy found in the occult is partly a reaction to the disapproval of society (cf Golden Dawn) and partly a way of cranking up the sense of mystery and impressiveness (cf Gardner's Wicca). Joel's observations on this point are well made but may not be universally relevant. What IS I think important is the general courtesy of not revealing the identities of others without their consent -- or indeed of revealing group workings "too much" without the consent of one's co-workers.
 
  
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