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The effects of computers/cybernetics on identity construction and concepts of reality

 
 
slinkyvagabond
11:51 / 13.01.03
I'm doing some research on this topic and I'd like to know what people think about this. I won't be quoting anyone in my final project or anything, I assure you, cos I wouldn't be allowed to anyway. If anyone wants to give their opinion on the effects of stuff like creating online identities that may be different from your offline persona, or the effects of communicationg and making friends with people you never meet face to face. I'm looking at this myself from a pretty postmodern point of view and am open to all comments, whatever you think. Theorists I've looked at include Turkle, Haraway, Plant and Zizek which may give a better idea of where I'm coming from. I'm interested in the notions of fluidity of old boundaries, such as human/machine, real/fantasy and I know that these fit in well with this forum so I'm just interested to hear what people come up with - your own experiences, your opinions, comments, theories. Perhaps you can provide the spark that will send me off to a new level in this line of thought and you know I'd appreciate that. Aside from the research, I'm just absolutely fascinated by this topic.
 
 
The Natural Way
12:15 / 13.01.03
You have read McCluhan, haven't you?

But this is one for the headshop, innit?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:17 / 13.01.03
I think the Head shop might be a good place for it, but the Conversation is also valid. It depends on what sort of response people want.

It's a fascinating subject, and I will come back to it ASAP. In the meantime - have you looked at Stone at all? She's got some interesting stuff on this - will dig up what I can.
 
 
slinkyvagabond
19:36 / 14.01.03
no, actually, I haven't read too much McLuhan - I've tended to look at more recent writings, especially from the cyberfeminist stable. I've looked at some things about "postmodern" spaces as well, especially Bukatman, but as he says himself (I paraphrase) the major problem with writing on cybernetics/computers/pomo and what have you is that your subject(s) change and evolve far more rapidly than you can hypothesise and write about them. So with that in mind I thought that talking to people through the medium I'm researching would be worthwhile - recursive, if you like. Anyway, I'm fine with being moved to headshop, I guess I should I have considered which forum to post on a little longer before firing off. And thanks, Haus, will have a look at some Stone, I confess I don't know her. But this is why I posted.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:15 / 15.01.03
(mod note - the post previously above this one has been moved for deletion, due to most of its length being not relevant except tangentially to the question asked, and the greatness of its length creating a potential threadkiller. However, no judgement on the thoughts contained therein is implied, and if anyone would like to respond to the questions raised by Slinky Vagabond or anyone else in the thread, or post anytihng else relevant to the topic, perhaps drawing from their previous work, they are of course more than welcome)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:30 / 15.01.03
Quoting Allucquere Rosanne stone:

One of our Western insustrialised cultural assumptions is that subjectivity is invariably constituted in relation to a physical substrate - that social beings, people, exist by virtue of possessing biological bodies through which their existence is warranted in the body politic. Another is that we know unproblematically what "body" is.

This is part of the intro to her article on Sanford Lewin. Lewin was a psychiatrist who constructeda female persona, Julie Graham, that became more real than Lewin himself on Compuserve:

i was stunned at the conversational mode. I hadn't known that women talked among themselves that way. There was so much more vulnerability, so much depth and complexity. And then I thought ot myself, here's a terrrific opportunity to help people, by catching them when their normal defences are down and they're more able to hear what they need to hear

This is already a fascinating aetup, as it seems to have ticking away underneath the idea that what these women need is not in fact actual female company or support, but rather an "innoculation" of masculine wisdom presented in a capsule of femininity. So, Lewin saw himself as a healer entering an alien community - a beekeeper, possibly, rather than someone creeping into the festival of Bona dea in drag.

But the brief became severely distorted, and Lewin's persona - Julie Graham - developed her own history and personality, and indeed an active netsex life, presumably not entirely within the original Asclepian remit. So, he developed an entire parapersonality, and subsequently created a boyfriend for her, whom he also manifested online. When he tried to kill Julie Graham off, the outpourings of emotion and support were such that he had to ressurect her, and his subsequent attempts to introduce "himself", Stanford Lewin, through the agency of Julie Graham were largely unsuccessful, because compared to Julie Graham Stanford Lewin just wasn't very interesting. If we're talking about a Harawayan structure here, then the structure in which the social interaction occured became - what? - corrupted? Was Julie Graham a parapersonality, or a form of "unvoiced" MPD facilitated by technology, or a virus infecting and reinfecting through individual, interface and context?

You've almost ceratinly already covered Lewin, of course, but it's an interesting jumping-off point. For example, one of the trade-points of barbelith is physical reality and physical location. At the moment, for example, Rothkoid is *physically* in Australia, and pretty pissed off about it, which he can express in threads about barbemeets in London - as a parapresence? To extend this, two recurrent threads in the Conversation are "what do you look like?" (an invitation to post either physical descriptions or images) and "How do you imagine people on Barbelith looking?", which appear largely to coexist successfully. Elsewhere, the Creation had the Barbe-slash thread, in which members of Barbelith were both embodied and sexualised, frequently with bodies and sexualities that are "factually" (airquotes there) not valid, or perhaps valent. Growing out of and into that, a certain type of Barbeloid attempts to assert their primacy by imagining other members into sexual scenarios, in which the target is rephysicalised - embodied and reified simultaneously, in a sense - in what appears to be a form of attempted technological voodoo...

Hoom.
 
 
schmee
15:29 / 15.01.03
no problem, couldn't link to it cause folks would have to register, apologies for posting its entirety.

without quoting from it, the point of the piece which i believed relates to this thread is the underlying issue of Ego and time in the context of online gathering places.

time is a major factor in how people evaluate others online. because time is decieving online, we tend to assign associations to percieved personality based on one's concept of time.

if someone walks up to you in the street and says 4 paragraphs in less than 10 seconds, you're going to develop an opinion real quick about the person's personality. likewise, if someone talks at a snails pace, so slow that you lose your train of thought in between each word, you'll make another association to that person's personality.

how many surfers, namely new ones, make personality associations/observations based on the presentation made, and the conclusions people might draw over the time involved in generating them.

going the other direction, being able to take advantage of time in cyberspace (go faster than anyone else), is a major part of what makes more agile cybernauts agile in the first place, and so has become a point of pride.

the point is time is a major awareness factor online, and that relates directly to how people percieve others, and even themselves, as well as how they might forge their own personality over time being online.

combine that with the problem of people failing quite naturally to appreciate they are using many relics from a non-digital space to interface with it all, and thus making the mistake to presume they are using something of that nature - eg confusing email for real mail and it's conventions.

there are many movies available now about the phenomena of online games, namely MMORPGs, which i'm sure most folks are well aware of. lots of valuable insight in these case studies of some extremes.

anonymous communication is invaluable in that let's be heard thoughts that otherwise would never be known - but it has the draw back of creating incredible amounts of noise that has no value to anyone other than the theraputic value for the poster.

what this can do however, is force people to focus on the clarity of the thought itself, not the personality - a critical dynamic in today's world of masterful PR, aristotle-based logic grinds and showmanship.

anonymity is always fleeting however as each new communication reveals a consistent character.

should it be any surprise the basics of our psychological make-up come out in a place we are not terribly conscious of? do you not reach out you hand and ask for help in the dark, as much as you'd rather not be seen in need?

often personality is based around this reality until consciousness at a more mainstream level is achieved. which raises the point of cycles, and how one's personality is only as well defined as their own consciousness - a fleeting, cyclical thing for most.

good luck, sounds fun.
 
 
slinkyvagabond
20:13 / 22.01.03
sorry, but is there any chance that you could move this post back to conversation just for a bit cos I'm not really getting much response here, perhaps because more people mess around in convo, than headshop. And just to reiterate, I'm interested in personal experiences and opinions too, not just theoretical stuff. I'm still an undergrad so it's not like I'm leaking out the nose with knowledge about this area. Please help me in my ignorance - the time, it slips away.
 
 
Persephone
14:43 / 23.01.03
Barbelith has two things for me, at least. One is that it's an engagement that can be pretty well manhandled to fit into my schedule, which is fairly packed. So in this regard it's significantly different from having IRL friends whose needs are immediate and present.

The other thing is, IRL I blush. And on Barbelith I don't, unless I choose to type in *blush* ...actually in this vein, I'm generally disconnected from the embarrassments of the body, which impacts identity more than I had imagined it would.
 
 
Linus Dunce
16:04 / 23.01.03
I'm not really sure that I do have an on-line personality discrete from that in real life. I use aliases and descriptive rather than distinctive names solely to protect my anonymity on both sides of the divide, and what I write is pretty much me, though perhaps in more flowery and sometimes considered language. Like Persephone, I'm happy that no one can see me blush, and I do write things that I wouldn't say in real life but I usually believe there is some truth there, or at least a viewpoint the reader should consider.

Some may argue that one can create a plural identity online. Well, maybe you can use a different language, or pretend ideological stances, but no matter what you do, your art is an extension of yourself and your real-life attitudes. And there is a certain amount of accountability (witness the free speech arguments going on recently). I suspect a great deal of the apparent weight behind the concept of cyber-id is due to Turing's definition of machine intelligence -- a specious bit of ad hoc relativism if ever there was.

Ultimately, I have to say I don't believe in cyberspace, though it is a charming notion and I have enjoyed a couple of Bill Gibson's novels. We've had books for centuries -- outside of fiction, no one has proven literary mimesis has created any less of an alternative world -- why are HTML pages any different? Sure, on-line debate e.g. is "cooler," re. MacLuhan, but we're still locked into the bagatelle game of computer operations and the "click here" options the board owner gives us. We don't have anywhere near as much "interactivity" as old-fashioned pen pals. I cannot, for instance, enclose a bar of chocolate with my posts, much as sometimes I would like to.

Having said all that, I do enjoy writing here. It's possible one or two of you have gathered I'm not working at the moment and I thank you all for providing entertaining and enlightening human contact during these last months. I start working again next week so I won't be around quite so much, but I should think I'll be here on and off.
 
 
slinkyvagabond
16:25 / 23.01.03
Ooh, thank you soo much!

Persephone: you've brought up a really interesting point. I'm ashamed to admit I never thought about that. In relation to both you and Ignatius's posts, I was thinking that perhaps the reason we're much more forceful/emphatic/eloquent (!) online is to do with the fact we can't be seen *blushing* or whatever. If you've ever read transcribed speech you'll realise that people are notorious for "bad" grammer, repeating themselves, unfinished sentences and random pre-linguisic noises but of course these are compensated by the shared knowledge/culture etc. of the conversants. Online, we can't presuppose such shared knowledge so we have to think about what we're going to say and articulate it better...maybe..Hey, online we become better narrators of our own lives...(god, I'm so obvious. Obvious and slow.)..How very Lacanian (or maybe not, I can never quite grasp what that man is talking about) - we take our fractured RL lives and must necessarily make them into some sort of cohesive narrative(s) because talking through text (in old-style, with chocolate bars, letters too)demands it, most of the time, and especially when we're talking to people whose cultural referents we can't be sure of. Thanks for helping a drug-ruined brain set off on the road to thought. I, too, like talking to you guys, you've been a real help *gush*
 
 
Perfect Tommy
23:35 / 23.01.03
Dunno if any of this might be useful (or even comprehensible to a non-EverQuest player); it's some information (can't attest to the accuracy either way) about gender-bending in an online fantasy game. The ability to switch genders by checking a box was weirder than I expected.
 
 
slinkyvagabond
11:10 / 31.01.03
De-individuation, anyone?
 
  
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