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911 and the Cyberpunk future

 
 
John Adlin
07:13 / 07.10.01
The title says it all really.
One of the core ideas of Cyberpunk is decentrialsation. Oe to misquote William Gibsons Neuromancer. "Companies replaced goverments as the new world powers-Multi national coprarations with offices in every coutry."
Now is is reall inconceable to imagine thet Microsoft (tm) has more power than the American Goverment? I've not been following it in the news that closely but I would cetanly theorise that Microsoft (tm) has more money and power then a small country. So there is the beginnings of one of Wiliam Gbsons Zibatusus. Which would have proabaly made no diffrence it if were'nt for the events of 911. The American Super power has been shown to be not so super.
A lot of sci fi peredictinos have come to pass becuase the scientists of the near furture have read or been influced by the contents of the books.
Are we one step closer to the rational anarchy of the Cuberfuture?
Have the events of 911 started the death throes of Goverments and politicians?
 
 
w1rebaby
08:39 / 07.10.01
Nobody will notice until it's already happened, and in some areas it has.

I always said cyberpunk was more about the present than the past. Gibson's books have always been unfairly typified as dystopian. The real world is just as bad as anything in Neuromancer.
 
 
reidcourchie
17:33 / 07.10.01
I think there are a lot more powerful companies in the world than microsoft, in terms of wielding political power, companies like Shell spring to mind. Also I'm of the opinion that the largest and most powerful companies will be huge and almost faceless holding companies connecting large multinationals together, that we are completely unaware of and are capable of bringing huge amounts of influence to bare.

Comparing Shell to Microsoft I suppose would be old power versus new power. Part of the thing with Microsoft is not what they are doing but a worry over what they are capable of.
 
 
w1rebaby
18:14 / 07.10.01
The connecting companies such as Unilever are definitely the ones to watch. Incidentally, I understand the term "keiretsu" is more accurate for these entities than "zaibatsu".
 
 
Sharkgrin
23:23 / 07.10.01
Great arguments, Kamie, but not many states or countries will allow any anyone within their borders to hold armed and trained police forces within their own borders IF THEY COULD POSSIBLY THREATEN THEIR OWN POLICE FORCE.
Consequently, to protect their capital and realty investments, few heavy industries want to operate in countries here they don't feel physically secure.
IMHO, the only thing nice consistent governments is that they project order by having the biggestand meanest police force within its borders.
I work as a lowly analyst within the souless, highly despised American Military-Industrial Complex.
 
 
Traz
00:00 / 08.10.01
Islands in the Net by Bruce Sterling examines the concept in detail; his notion of "economic democracies" is stark raving beautiful in its simplicity.

By the way, "cuberpunk" sounds like the name of a brilliant new art movement, like Picasso in mirrorshades.
 
 
John Adlin
04:44 / 08.10.01
Opps spelling mistake agian.

I used Microsft as an example becase it affects us all as computer users wether we be in Brazil, Britain or Australia.
 
 
reidcourchie
15:23 / 08.10.01
Originally posted by Sharkgrin
Consequently, to protect their capital and realty investments, few heavy industries want to operate in countries here they don't feel physically secure.

Sorry that doesn't hold true. There are many case of heavy industry operating in unstable countries and in many cases adding to the instability. Shell (I think) has been accused of hiring mercenaries to protect their interests in Angola. In an unstable country a multi national will buy the government to ensure that it's interests are protected. Having friends and families who works as contractors in setups like this the sites tend to be armed camps (and yes they do have their own well armed police forces).

That's what I mean about old versus new industry, microsoft doesn't have to leave it's home office, it can reach out and touch someone from there.

Originally posted by Sahrkgrin
I work as a lowly analyst within the souless, highly despised American Military-Industrial Complex.
Scuse me asking, what kind of analyst?
 
 
Sharkgrin
20:33 / 09.10.01
Thanks for the heads-up on Shell, Reidie.

IMHO, back in the 1700-1800 days of colonialism and mercantilism, companies like the East India Trading Company literally ran entire colonies and nations for the notion of development and the true purpose of squeezing a steady profit from under the military/police/mercenary protection of a sponsoring nation. I think the idea is pretty old, but uncommon in the last century since de-colonization.

I test and critique new equipment for the Army, kind of like the American Tourist monkey does to the luggage in the cage (or is it Samsonite). Most of what I see won't see production for 3 or 4 years. Nothing super-covert, just needed by the military.
 
 
Blank Faced Avatar
12:58 / 10.10.01
As far as you can tell, 911 bolsters the Government side considerably, increased military spending all round and less civil lib/red tape/regulation to operate under. But they're hand in hand on so many levels with these keiretsu ( ) that both sides have a field day, ordinary people pay for it.

But don't worry, as the power of companies and governments is puny compared to the power of people.
 
 
reidcourchie
17:17 / 11.10.01
Headline in this morning's Telegraph ( a quite right wing, British, broadsheet daily) "Blair believes neo-colonialism is the solution." Talking about Afghanistan of course.

Originally posted by Sharkgrin
"IMHO, back in the 1700-1800 days of colonialism and mercantilism, companies like the East India Trading Company literally ran entire colonies and nations for the notion of development and the true purpose of squeezing a steady profit from under the military/police/mercenary protection of a sponsoring nation. I think the idea is pretty old, but uncommon in the last century since de-colonization."

I disagree. In the case of the British empire, it came into existence purely through naval superiority and the will to use gunpowder more offensivly than just for fireworks and often at the expense of more advanced or sophisticated socities.

I think colonialism is alive and well in this day and age and has been throughout the 20th century. Reading between the line I can see a lot of pro-imperial stuff coming out in the press. They seem to be telling us that the middle east is in need of civilising.

The thing is the evils that read about from old colonialism we can only understnd in a historical context. Societies are not very good at analysing themselves in the hear and now but I wonder how our descendants will think of us.

The playing field has changed somewhat in colonialism, the first world is less eager (believe it or not) to use overt military force. Preferring economic pressure, diplomatic pressure and PR and spin jobs. If anything the corporation rather than the nation state has become the coloniser. In the 70's and the 80's it was a case of find a down on it's luck country and exert financial pressure to let the corporation take what it wants from the country's natural resources. In the 90's that became more sinister with companies saying things like, yes we will inject capital into your country but you will teach what we say in your schools and part of that is loyalty to the company. And of course if the army do get called in, PR steps up to the mic and tells you that the Gulf war was not about oil. Right?

The great thing about all this is it sounds like some dystopian, cyberpunk future and when you mention it to people they don't believe you.

Originally posted by Traz
"Islands in the Net by Bruce Sterling examines the concept in detail; his notion of "economic democracies" is stark raving beautiful in its simplicity."

It's been a while since I read that but I don't think that's the future we're looking at. Multinationals keep on getting bigger and bigger. As that happens you're choice become more homogenous. It strikes me (and if any of you're economist I'd be happy to be proved wrong on this) that the monopolistic actions of companies like Starbucks, Coke, McDonalds are actually detrimental to a free economy and that what we are looking it is a future of corporate feudalism. Anybody who's signed a contract to a big company recently will know what I'm talking about. It seems like you're giving them everything and receiving nothing in return. Perhaps we'll all get a place in corporate heaven.

Originally posted by the Humble Crab
"As far as you can tell, 911 bolsters the Government side considerably, increased military spending all round and less civil lib/red tape/regulation to operate under. But they're hand in hand on so many levels with these keiretsu ( ) that both sides have a field day, ordinary people pay for it."

Every explosion I see on TV in Afghanistan is some of my taxes going up in smoke. The arms companies will rake it in again. But then they are old school corporate in terms of cyberpunk. I was going to say something about information and possibly the redundancy of the heavy industry of the arms trade but I've totally lost my train of thought. Sorry.
 
 
Harold Washington died for you
04:55 / 14.10.01
I've noticed in a lot of the cyberpunk novels and stories I've read that very rarely does the storyteller explain or even mention the big catalyst that started the slide towards megasupermultinationals and console cowboys running the world. Usually it's some vague reference to a war or economic disaster that sundered the superpower (or powers, depending on when it was written). I agree that 911 may be one of these shadowy levers that rolls the dystopian boulder right over us.

We have perhaps the start of a long terrorist war, with the enemy hiding in many different countries, decentralized for necessity and also maximum effect. And we have big companies that have already begun to do the same things for the same reasons.

Nation-states are very much like dinosaurs lumbering here and there, respected for their power but very big and easy targets. The quick furry mammals like Al Qaeda and Microsoft it would seem are ready for the next KT event.

And as corps start leaving their homes and spreading out into the global ecomony, a world of rapidly crumbling trade barriers, where does the economic might of their former hosts go? Right out the window, that's where. You may see a big ass stars and stripes outside your local Home Depot, but you think if they could make cheaper lawnmowers in Micronesia they wouldn't be there in a heartbeat? Just like that Home Depot is that much more out of control of the government that allowed its creation, and a happy side effect, just that much harder to destroy physically too.

[ 14-10-2001: Message edited by: Morocco Mole ]
 
 
Medea Zero
06:19 / 14.10.01
maybe its just my twisted brain, but I've always thought a lot of cyberpunk makes a lot more sense than a hell of a lot of mainstream, status-quo maintaining theories of how the world should/does work. think snow crash and the references to Sovereigns, the imagined economy run by corporations, where the president of the nation-state is some little relatively powerless dude shimmying up to the bad guys with nukes, mindfucking drugs, and nice toys. oh and I love this quote from Snowcrash:

quote: "Its a dangerous world", Lagos says. "Getting more dangerous all the time. So we don't want to upset the balance of power. Think about the cold war."

Yeah, its easy to make glib remarks about the whole terror deal; doesn't mean I don't feel deeply about how real all these politics are. But I think we tend to put into place all these hierarchies - the most pertinent one here being theory vs fiction - and that people like samuel delaney and robert frost write some pretty amazing theory into their sci fi.
 
  
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