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Magick

  
 
Mike
08:40 / 12.01.03
I'm the kind of person who speaks my mind, and has an insulting mind to begin with. Normally I try to be sociable about it, but every now and then I say something that offends people. I think this may be about to be one of those times.

There are people in this forum who are more lost than a 12-year-old girl who's just bought a book on wicca from a shop and has started going around telling everyone that she is a witch. Only these people are older and have read more books, have a slightly more mature attitude to the way they promote themselves publicly, and are much more lost.

I'm not exactly pinned to the beaten path myself, but this one piece of advice I can give:

Know thyself.

Whether by meditation or magickal study or practise or by whatever means work for you, get to know yourself. When your concious and unconcious minds become best friends, thats when you start to learn real magick, until then you are only learning about other peoples' magick. Its time to start learning yours.

Some people talk about magick. Some people do magick. I don't know very many people who talk about magick and do magick. Talking about magick fills your head with crap, doing magick takes the crap away.

If anyone is offended they are welcome to hex me until I glow.
 
 
Rev. Wright
10:06 / 12.01.03
Who put a bee in your bonnet. Confrontation of such a vague and ungrounded nature is most unwelcome on this board. If you've got an issue, you're better off illustrating it with examples, or you fall into just ranting, which achieves very little, but offend under some guise of bravado. Unless offending people is all you have to offer?

If anyone is offended they are welcome to hex me until I glow.

This kind of dialogue gets associated with the term polesmoker, for antagonism.
 
 
Stone Mirror
16:58 / 12.01.03
It seemed to me that this was instigated by the "It's Time to Learn" thread, and deservedly so.
 
 
The Monkey
18:18 / 12.01.03
I think I'm most offended by the clinging to such an outmoded construct as the unconscious/conscious split.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
19:20 / 12.01.03
Frankly, I don't understand the extremely common claim that if one talks about something, one somehow cannot possibly actually do it. It happened in that comics manifesto thread, too. Scientists publish their work and have conferences; why not magickos?
 
 
Seth
20:53 / 12.01.03
It would be an empty forum if we were all practising and not talking. Remember: what you see here is a tiny fragment of people's lives, the portion they choose to share, and it's often very different to the full picture. The Internet is geared towards communication, and this site towards debate. It's stupid to point out that we like to talk. No shit, Sherlock.

The arrogance of your post is startling. So many assumptions, so condescending.

If you'd like to reconsider your motivation for starting this thread I'll be happy to arrange for its deletion.
 
 
Badbh Catha
21:32 / 12.01.03
Well, yeah, it's an arrogant post. But I can see why Evy wrote it; perhaps s/he'd like to see less fluff and more substance in this forum. That's a very hard thing to ask for politely.

It's true that the text-on-screen format used here makes it difficult to show and express the totality of one's Magickal abilities. (There are aspects of Magick that are near impossible to describe in text.) But Evy is correct in that it's very easy to talk a good magickal talk, and make oneself look more knowlegeable than one really is to impress other people... which happens here far more often than anyone cares to admit.

I can see why expressionless wants to delete this thread, because it will definitely piss off cetain people, who will raise a big stink and cause Evy a whole lot of trouble, not to mention re-assert the Magick forum as The Ghetto of Barbelith, where Sensible People Dare Not Go. As a moderator, that would be a fucking headache for him to deal with.

But I also sympathize with Evy; perhaps instead of making a blanket statment that "Some people on this forum are full of shit" and bringing those people out of the woodwork, it would be best for Evy to do hir part to improve the level of critical debate here and stick to dealing with the posters here who aren't full of shit, in hir opinion.
 
 
Seth
21:45 / 12.01.03
I don't want to delete this thread. I wanted to offer an opportunity for the person who started it to re-read what they'd written, and maybe start over again on a less pissy basis. From where I'm sitting, it reads like someone taking their frustrations out on the community.

If people want this board to change they should provide the kind of input they'd like to see, or engage in constructive criticism that sites examples and deals with specifics. If this thread becomes such a thing, then that's fine. But with such an opener I doubt that it'll recover: hence an opportunity to delete and start over.
 
 
Rev. Wright
23:28 / 12.01.03
It all such a load of hogwash. How can anyone slate without stating examples that back up such claims. Its not constructive in the least. If I were to reread such a post that I had written I would certainly want to take up expressionless's offer of deletion.
As for being able to distinguish someones 'ability' and 'practice' from some 'words typed in a box', is ludicrous.
As Monkey pointed out and as I would suggest there is plenty already posted and debated achieved on this site that go well beyond the offending duality expressed in certain fiction suits. I suggest less typing and more researching that would reveal why some more established members of this forum are not posting, having covered a volume of material already.
If you want to be abrasive and possibly offend try mine for size and 'catch up'.
 
 
Papess
23:41 / 12.01.03
If people want this board to change they should provide the kind of input they'd like to see, or engage in constructive criticism that sites examples and deals with specifics.


Well, I did try to attempt this in this thread in Conversation.
 
 
Seth
09:20 / 13.01.03
May: The synonymy of *try* and *attempt* suggests you feel the thread hasn't been successful. It seems fine to me. Keep at it, mate!
 
 
Papess
11:39 / 13.01.03
Well, thanks expressionless, but no, I don't feel the thread has been successful considering the reaction here in THe Magick. It can hardly be successful if there isn't discussion going on. Anyway, I bumped it.

When other fora have an issue or side topic don't they move them to convo? I thought that was protocol.

Just an observation: It seems so many were upset with Joe's arrogance, and understandably so. However, it seems that in our response to Joe, some have become exactly what they were rebelling against.

Enh, just something ugly I saw rear it's head.
 
 
arcboi
11:59 / 13.01.03
I think Evy's spot on. Obviously they're not talking about powerful magicians who have ascended to the higher levels like what I have. Simply those poor fools who have no inkling of the forces with which they doth meth with. I mean 'mess'. I, of course, have long since transcended such things.

Now get your foot off me purple robes of power.
 
 
Badbh Catha
12:12 / 13.01.03
I'm not exactly pinned to the beaten path myself... – Evy

That doesn't sound like someone who considers hirself as having "ascended to the higher levels", arcboi.

Perhaps we should cut out the defensive attitudes and actually read what was posted? Of course people are upset by what Evy said – s/he's saying something many posters here don't want to hear.
 
 
Papess
12:58 / 13.01.03
Badbh Catha, maybe you misread arcboi's post, or perhaps I did, but I do not sense any defensiveness in it at all, although there is some sarcastic humour that is not directed at Evy personally. I thought it was funny.
 
 
Badbh Catha
13:32 / 13.01.03
Now, not to put the spotlight on arcboi overmuch...but since this thread was started by someone who clearly has issues with the forum, it would make sense to consider the posts that follow to have some sort of relevance to the matters that the original poster brings up. If they do not reference those matters but go off on an unrelated tangent, they tend to be considered threadrot.

I took arcboi's comment to be in reference to Evy and not (for example) Joe, because this is a thread that Evy started and got flak for. Due to the very heavy-handed way in which Evy presented hirself, I can see why arcboi might think Evy considers hirself too big for hir britches, but the intial post suggests Evy doesn't see hirself that way.

Perhaps it is best to stick to the subject at hand and not get overly personal about it? If that's too difficult for some people, then maybe leaving this thread be and starting other topics might be the best way to handle things?
 
 
Wyrd
13:54 / 13.01.03
Ok to get to the essence of the matter:

Some people talk about magick. Some people do magick. I don't know very many people who talk about magick and do magick. Talking about magick fills your head with crap, doing magick takes the crap away.

I know lots of people who talk about magic and do magic. It's not an either/or situation. I think it's actually very useful to talk about magic with people who also work magic, and to be honest, it's obvious that several people on this board know their shit. I'm especially interested in hearing from people who work in these weird ways but in via different traditions.

It's also silly to judge people based on what how they present themselves on this forum, or to imagine you know exactly what some people do, or do not do, outside of this forum. Of course it's easy to "talk up" on magic, though I do think that if you have some modicum of experience in the area you spot the poseurs rather quickly. So what if people talk shite sometimes? Such is life. Barbelith has its own pattern, and we usually have enough people on the board who manage to keep threads on subject.

While I know a moderate amount about some magical areas I believe that I'm a lifelong student and there's always something else to learn. What I find most useful is when people talk about their experiences, rather than precise methods or techniques (though they're also useful sometimes). There's always someone who's going to come on the board and try and tell us all what we're doing wrong, but a lot of the times it's a regular poster acting as a Devil's Advocat in order to stir things up. And, sometimes, stirring things up does have benefits (even if it's also frustrating).

If Evy, you believe that talking about magic is useless, then what are you doing on this board? Why start this thread?
 
 
illmatic
14:08 / 13.01.03
Wyrd: Great answer. I'd contribute a bit more, but I don't think I could put it better.
 
 
Mike
20:28 / 13.01.03
Why does everyone think I'm a 'she'? On second thoughts - don't answer that.

I had a feeling I was going to be going dangerously close to the line with my post, and I gave account for that in my post. I prefer to be disliked for saying what I think is true than liked for saying what I think people want to hear. However, I do offer my apologies to anyone who was genuinely offended by my post, and to clarify one point - I do not have issues with this forum. I like reading the posts here and I like adding my comments. My issue was with a minority of posters, not with Barbelith as a whole, and it was only one issue, not a total discreditment of those individuals.

I seem to have implied several things that I didn't intend to say. For example, it was never my intention to give arcboi the impression that I have "ascended to the higher levels". I am sure I have said before at least once that I strongly disagree with the idea of levels in the first place. "Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein

I do not believe that talking about magick is useless. I only meant to encourage certain people, without naming them, to practise magick. I have no objection to people taking a purely academic interest in the occult, but at the same time it is all to easy to fall into the trap of talking about magick and never doing any. My post was aimed at those who appear to be falling into or to have fallen into that trap.

My fear at the heart of this is that some people seem to have suggested that you can tell someone to read Crowley's Book of the Law and by doing so you have taught them magick.

As I've said before:

"The best teacher I ever had - the teacher who repaired the damage my mind suffered under the tutelage of my previous teachers - rarely recommended books by obvious authors such as Crowley and Regardie, and only ever recommended any book if and when my mind was at a stage where that specific book would be helpful. The right book at the right time.

He never sat me down and lectured me on the occult. He sat me down and played me Jazz music, and lectured me on that instead. He got me doing odd jobs for him - making coffee, running errands, etc. He got me working for an agency doing manual labour work. While my body strengthened and my conscious mind healed, my subconscious mind learnt. Then my subconscious mind taught my conscious mind how to use the tricks it had learnt. I learnt more in a month of making coffee than I had learnt in my entire life previously.

That method wouldn't have worked for everybody, and I think this teacher has used a slightly different method for everyone he has taught. He doesn't give people what they want - he gives people exactly what they need. That's the sort of teacher I recommend."

All the hairs go up on the back of my neck when someone starts talking about giving students reading lists of old books by dead people that will not teach them anything at all about real magick, only about other peoples' ideas about magick. Academic interest is not detrimental in any way that I am aware of, but in my opinion (rightly or wrongly) a seeker who comes to you should be taught magick, not turned into an I-read-a-book wannabe who will look back in years to come (assuming they ever do learn magick) and wish they'd never met you.

I'm going to stop now before I say anything else that comes across too strongly or just comes out alltogether wrong, except to say that I have nothing against anyone in Barbelith, I just think that one or two individuals need to rethink their teaching methods before another seeker ends up in a mess.
 
 
Papess
20:40 / 13.01.03
Nicely said Evy. Your fustrations are shared by many.
 
 
LVX23
21:20 / 13.01.03
A couple of points:

1) Reading itself is participation in a magickal act, albeit a somewhat passive one. Check out GM's ideas behind his sigilisation of The Invisible's...

2) Engaging the introductory and fundamental magickal texts is an important beginning step for anyone interested in magickal practise. While it is only a step towards practical magick, it lays the foundation necessary to strengthen the individual and prepare them to deal with potentially dangerous subconscious and etheric situations. Likewise, it educates the individual on having a magickal relationship with their surroundings and teaches them the tools necessary to further that relationship.

3) Reading the texts provides context and meaning for the acts. Any magickal act is strengthened with knowledge of the elements of that act. Learn the symbols, mantras, myths, deities, paths, demons, etc... and your magick will be stronger (and your head will be safer).
 
 
Seth
22:36 / 13.01.03
May: When I posted your thread had two responses over the course of Saturday/Sunday. That's not bad going on Barbelith: weekends are traditionally quiet.
 
 
Wyrd
22:51 / 13.01.03
Evy,

I do not believe that talking about magick is useless. I only meant to encourage certain people, without naming them, to practise magick.

Why don't you just name the people you were directing this to, rather than making a general point which wasn't even targeted at the majority of us? If you think that someone is talking out of their arse, why not say that to him/her? If it's done in a fair and objective manner, then criticisms like that can lead to a productive discussion.

I have no objection to people taking a purely academic interest in the occult, but at the same time it is all to easy to fall into the trap of talking about magick and never doing any. My post was aimed at those who appear to be falling into or to have fallen into that trap.

I'd certainly agree that there's no point talking and studying magic if you don't actually do anything about it. Most people on this board do encourage people to start somewhere, even it it's small.

My fear at the heart of this is that some people seem to have suggested that you can tell someone to read Crowley's Book of the Law and by doing so you have taught them magick.

Heh, most people would find the Book of the Law a tough first text on magic to digest! But, out of curiousity, on what thread did you think this was happening?

By the way, your account of what and how you learned from your teacher is excellent, and shows that in your case the right teacher appeared when you most needed him. If it's the right teacher then his/her methods will suit the student - or will adapt accordingly. I've taught one person so far, and I know that those who will be sent to me for instruction are those who will need my particular methodology.

That method wouldn't have worked for everybody, and I think this teacher has used a slightly different method for everyone he has taught.

That's the point to remember, the way you were taught was unique to you, and may not suit other people.

All the hairs go up on the back of my neck when someone starts talking about giving students reading lists of old books by dead people that will not teach them anything at all about real magick, only about other peoples' ideas about magick.

I think you're making some rather wide-sweeping generalisations here, plus you're making assumptions about other people's abilities.

Not everyone has the benefit of finding a teacher like you did, but want, or are driven, to learn more about magic. By the way, what's this separation you're making between "real" magic and people's ideas about magic? As a life-long bibliophile I've never taken anyone else's ideas in a book on faith - and that definitely includes magical theory or practise. I'm sure everyone here would suggest that if you can't find a teacher (and I would agree that's the best way to learn if you can) then read widely, keep an open mind, and find out what suits you. I've seen that advice given on more than one occasion on this board.

Academic interest is not detrimental in any way that I am aware of, but in my opinion (rightly or wrongly) a seeker who comes to you should be taught magick, not turned into an I-read-a-book wannabe who will look back in years to come (assuming they ever do learn magick) and wish they'd never met you.

Evy it appers to me that you've (rightly or wrongly) got your own biases about learning magic from a book. Do you assume that people who learn magic from a book can't do as well as someone who has been taught by a teacher? Do you think that no one on this board teaches people? Either on this board or outside of it? Why would recommending books to someone be wrong, especially if they asked you for a list?

I just think that one or two individuals need to rethink their teaching methods before another seeker ends up in a mess.

Who are these individuals who are leading people astray?

Just out of interest I'll tell you my story of how I learned what I did. I didn't encounter a teacher like you did, but instead in the beginning I had to get my information - yep you guessed it - from books. After a while I began working experimentally with what I read, and quickly recognised what was crap and what was useful - that's what cop on and common sense are useful for. I worked with a similar bunch of novices, and after a while I met other people, some of which I did workshops with, etc. But, unfortunately, I never met "the one" teacher who I thought would explain everything to me. Instead I was lucky to find a series of teachers, who taught me parts of the puzzle, and some of those teachers were authors.

I'd certainly, wholeheartedly, agree that if you find a flesh-and-blood teacher who's decent and copped on then go for it. Though, there are as many potential pitfalls to working with a teacher as there are with believing everything you read. It's a much harder struggle to work things out on your own, and of course, some people don't fare well in that environment. Luckily for me, I made my own way, and even today books are still great resources to me. I view everyone I meet as a potential teacher, and I learn lessons about magic all the time, even from some people who don't know they are demonstrating things to me.

So, dare I suggest that it's a middle path we could suggest to people. Yeah read books if you want (and I know some people who were actually barred from reading books), but be a sceptical reader, and only use what rings true for you. Test everything. Be practical, and actually do (be) magic. Books won't provide all the answers, but neither will a teacher (well, the good ones won't pretend to know all the answers).

Yes, there will always be foolish people out there who will taken everything written by an author to heart, or will take up with a money-robbing or egotisical teacher who will screw them up. We can't save everyone, and part of the learning process is making mistakes. All we can do is answer people's questions, and try and foster a sense of humour and some common sense. Two essential characteristics for anyone interested any magician (imo).
 
 
Wyrd
23:19 / 13.01.03
Ah right, it's all become clear now. I've just had a look at the It's time to learn thread - which mysteriously escaped me until today. I suspect some of your comments where directed at Joe, Evy?

Though, I am a bit confused about your stance on reading lists when you started a thread on this very subject recently...
 
 
Seth
00:12 / 14.01.03
I only meant to encourage certain people, without naming them, to practise magick.

If this was genuinely the objective then I'd be hesitant to say that this was the way to achieve it:

There are people in this forum who are more lost than a 12-year-old girl who's just bought a book on wicca from a shop and has started going around telling everyone that she is a witch. Only these people are older and have read more books, have a slightly more mature attitude to the way they promote themselves publicly, and are much more lost.

It's hardly "encouraging." It reads more like "I've spotted a few inexperienced practitioners and I'm going to gleefully announce it to the board as if they're second class citizens or bandwagon jumpers before preaching at them using my favoured pseudo-magico psychobabble." I'd be interested to see how many people found your first post encouraging (especially those who are new to magic), as it rather seems as if you've reverse engineered that particular subtext via your second post.

Knowing your desired outcome and choosing the most efficient means of achieving it are pretty good general rules for both workings and communication skills. You're either a poor communicator or knowingly behaving in an extremely antagonistic and unconstructive manner. Or you may be neither, unaware of the contradictions between your aims and your methods. If it's the latter, I'd recommend *knowing thyself.*

I'm still interested in hearing specifics here. The idea that we're supposed to share some form of tacit knowledge concerning exactly who you're referring to is both irritating and tedious. If you genuinely don't care about what we think of you then you should have no problem with this, and it'll at least give those individuals a sporting chance to defend themselves (if they choose to).

Oh, and puh-lease cut all that "I tell it like it is, I'm brave enough to offend" crap. Your posts have been content-lite, dealing in generalisation and conjecture. It wouldn't be tolerated in other forums and we won't buy it in the Magick.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
01:13 / 14.01.03
Thanks, exp. That covers what I'd been thinking. I know that I'm a newbie, magickally speaking, but at this point, I'm having to learn stuff through books, or through this place - another form of text. I'm not in a headspace to practice especially strongly yet, and since I haven't moved to where I'll be living for a reasonable amount of time here, I'm loath to hook up with a group when I might be moving away tomorrow. But I read books and try to filter out shit from shinola, and I bounce it off other people to try to get it figured out so that when I do start practicing, I can approach it from a kinda "forewarned is forearmed" place - even though I know from hearing others' experiences that it's very much the sort of discipline/experience that you can't prepare for until it happens. BUt seeing as I haven't had this transformative experience, I read, and attempt to glean meaning.

But does that make me any less dedicated, or have much less of a feeling of desire, or a yen for the quest? I don't think it does, and to infer so is a bit head-patting: moreso than many other posters here can be, even at their worst. And yeah, there might be a lot of people who would fit The Craft stereotype of happygothteenchik dabbling - but surely even out of these, there's a couple who'd be a boon to magick and this place, even? Is it worth alienating them, too?

Ach. Not clear. Will shut up.
 
 
Wyrd
08:57 / 14.01.03
And yeah, there might be a lot of people who would fit The Craft stereotype of happygothteenchik dabbling - but surely even out of these, there's a couple who'd be a boon to magick and this place, even? Is it worth alienating them, too?

I'm sure most, if not all, of us will have to admit to fitting into some kind of enthusiastic newbie category when we first started. Jesus, some of the books I read at the start were utter shite - but hey, I learned something from even the worst books: i.e. not to read them again, and what to start avoiding.

Most of us learned discernment in the end. I'm sure the happygothteenchik of today, could be the badass magician of tomorrow. You have to allow people to find their own path and trust that it will get them in the right place eventually (especially if magic is their calling). The right circumstances with crop up, or the right people, or the right book (or the right Bulletin Board!). That's the way it happens.
 
 
arcboi
23:13 / 14.01.03
Just to clear the air somewhat: I wasn't taking the piss out of Evy, but I saw an opening for a funny posting and I took it. Apologies to Evy if he/she took it that way because I didn't intend it.

If anything, I'm showing that we can all take ourselves a bit seriously sometimes and we should be able to have a laugh at ourselves sometimes. In fact, Evy's post made some good points.

All the contributers to this particular forum seem pretty capable of making a point and I'll certainly take note of anything useful or practical that's posted - regardless of who posts it. The alternative is to become some self-important character lording it over everyone else. I'll take the first option thanks very much.
 
  
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