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Lead, Follow or Get the F**k Out!

  
 
Papess
15:20 / 11.01.03
It seems to me that alot of Barbeloids (if not all) would agree this is a place of learning - of personal and collective evolution, as was discussed breifly here

This means that we teach one another, overtly or not. It is almost impossible to go through any of the fora here and not learn something. There are even threads designed to create skills exchange such as this thread here, and many in Magick and Creation.

Then I noticed that there are also alot of misconceptions (or preconcieved notions) about what it means to teach, lead, instruct or even how to learn, assimilate other viewpoints, accept personal shortcomings and evolution of thought process and content, especially within the framework of Barbelith. This thread on Barbe-Dictats, has mentioned in it, a certain attitude people should take when being corrected, questioned, being given a piss-take or generally discussing here, such as:

-Stop whining and adapt.
-Do the work.
-Post intermittently but wisely.
-Give things names. It makes it easier to talk about them, easier to understand them, and easier to deal with them.
-Endeavor to know what it is you're rebelling against.

Now, I agree with each of these statements, but I can see how some ideas may be misconstrued as to give license for abuse or assuming a role as teacher, only to display that they themselves have much to learn about teaching their peers (or even perhaps, the subject matter). There has been so much good advice and insight lost because of exactly how it is presented, thus, confusion, shit-flinging, piss-taking and thread-rot ensues, as is evidenced by this thread. Here is an offer of teaching services, whether genuine or hoax was rightly questioned but it really made me wonder...

What makes one a teacher or leader? Does just knowing alot about something enough? Is someone a leader just because they assume that position or becuase s/he was ordained that position by the few and influential? Is it important how a teacher/leader conveys their message or is it more important to just convey correct information?

Also, the flipside here is equally important to me. If there are certain marks of a good teacher, then there are certain marks of a good student, but what happens when someone who assumes they are a teacher, really has alot to learn? What about a sincere student who is given a piss-take by some moody poster who is "in-the-know"?

So, to summerise my question: What is the conduct and qualities of a good teacher and/or student, here at Barbelith and how do you know which one you are or should be in any given situation?

Thanks All.

P.S: I have used possibly loaded words like "teacher" and "student". They are meant loosely and in terms of how those definitions can be practically applied here on Barbelith.
 
 
Bill Posters
15:42 / 11.01.03
how do you know which one you are or should be in any given situation?

Um, as a teacher IRL I don't think the two are ever totally seperable. I learn shedloads from my students, even if they learn more from me than I from them. It's never just one way. Anyone who says it is isn't a teacher IMHO, they're an ego on legs.
 
 
Papess
20:01 / 11.01.03
Um, as a teacher IRL I don't think the two are ever totally seperable

Yes, exactly. Everyone has something of value to teach, but that does not make everyone a teacher, and if you are one who teaches (not meaning you personally B.P) that does not mean you can teach all the time.

Also, if one takes it upon themselves to respond to a thread or create a thread with a didactical tone - be it advisory, instructional, correctional commentary, or inquiry is it acceptable enough for it to merely contain correct and concise information if it has shoddy or arrogant presentation? Beyond that, how does one decide that they are the one to "teach someone a thing or two", or even when and how?

I don't think there are any really "right" answers here, but this might be worth discussing and hearing what different individuals think about how they send and recieve knowledge via Barbelith. Although real life examples are helpful for this discussion, this environment requires a degree of netiquette and even more specifically, awareness of barbe-culture that is not required IRL.

For example, I have realised that for myself to learn effectively from another 'lither, I might have to study their posting style to grasp how they are expressing themselves. However, if someone is having an arrogant piss-take on me, it is not just a matter of personal style any longer and I cease to take what is being conveyed, no matter how accurate, as self-aggrandizing sophistry or seemingly arrogant assumptions about their own prowess. So, the lesson ends. Uhm, yeah...thanks.

How could I take that seriously?

So, when people say Barbelith is a place of education and evolution, it begs the question....how is that best done?
 
 
Utopia
21:03 / 11.01.03
Well, to address your last question:

In the most practical sense, Barbelith is just a meeting place. While people may make connections to it, say, in the way you connect to the place you met someone you love, it has no effect on what actually goes on there (if someone wants to argue this point, I'll gladly take it up in another thread).

So, anyhoo, that only leaves one element left to decide how the space is used -- the users. 'Lithers have to make a concious decision to share information with others in a way that is beneficial for all parties involved -- and I know that sounds really daft and simple, but consider how many people are (once again) on the board. Not all of them have the intention of sharing information for personal and community benefit. Some come for the social atmosphere, some come proposing to be students/teachers but just become distractions.

The choice to mutually and beneficially share info should do away with the "moody poster in the know" leading the "sincere student" astray. I think we have a responsibility to each other, not only here, but in "the real world," and sarcasm and general meanness (two signs of believed superiority over others) just get in the way. That's not to say posts made in that spirit should be disregarded or outlawed, but it should be understood that it will just degrade the coverstaion. "Moodiness" and thread rot will never be completely overcome, but conciously witholding said distractions could elevate conversation.

And I too do not see anyone in particular filling a "Teacher" or "Student" role exclusively (not even lurkers; real students must participate). Rather, I see us all as information (or dis-information) weilders: independant units that make up this collective. We need to conciously decide to see each other as something of this sort, or the board will once again begin to transform into a large "Conversation" forum (as many 'lithers felt happened last Spring).
 
 
Papess
11:03 / 13.01.03
*bump*
 
 
illmatic
12:15 / 13.01.03
Well for a starter I thought I'd put in ,a href="http://www.phhine.ndirect.co.uk/archives/gp_masters.htm">this link - good overview of magicial teaching stuff. You might want to have a look back to the "Aspect of Tantra" PDF as well, May - very good article there about guru type relationships.

I have more thoughts on this myself, but I am really tired knackered today and have loads of work to do. So more soon.
 
 
illmatic
12:16 / 13.01.03
Obviously I am knackered cos i can't even sort out the bloodclart HTML properly - gggrr!
 
 
Badbh Catha
12:37 / 13.01.03
From the abstract:

What makes one a teacher or leader? Does just knowing alot about something enough? Is someone a leader just because they assume that position or becuase s/he was ordained that position by the few and influential? Is it important how a teacher/leader conveys their message or is it more important to just convey correct information

I don't see how it matters, really. The best teachers often don't realize they're teaching anyone; they just go about their business, and people learn just by being exposed to them. If one feels the need to try and figure out "how to be a teacher," one is probably trying too hard and should leave it alone.

I sense issues concerning the "ordained by the few and influential" aspect of the question...that's utterly irrelevant as to whether or not someone has information worth imparting. If someone just wants to look like,they have information worth imparting, then s/he would find such a matter quite important.

If something is worth knowing, people who need to know it will pick up on it. These questions seem more about how one can be percieved as a teacher or leader, which is less about educating other people and more about looking "good" or "appropriate" in order to impress other people.
 
 
Papess
13:42 / 13.01.03
No Badbh Catha, this thread is about being a teacher or student. I don't want to focus on how to "appear" as if you are a teacher or a student, but how one is percieved certainly fits into the quotient. For example, if someone thinks so and so is a twit, it doesn't matter how profound their posts may be, the perception is that they are a twit.

But as I said, how one is percieved is only a part of the issue. How one conducts oneself is another part. That certainly matters, doesn't it?

These questions seem more about how one can be percieved as a teacher or leader, which is less about educating other people and more about looking "good" or "appropriate" in order to impress other people.

I hope you are not suggesting I have created this thread in order to learn how to impress others just by simply "looking good"?

I started this thread so people can take a look at what it means to be learning here at BArbelith or what it means to be teaching here at Barbelith!

That said, I think when you mentioned, Badbh Catha - "The best teachers often don't realize they're teaching anyone; they just go about their business, and people learn just by being exposed to them.", you made an excellent point which is entirely relevent to the framework of BArbelith. This is probably the best form of conduct for a true barbe-teacher.

THe problems start when people assume they know more than others or that others are just not "in the know" and the teaching through piss-take begins. Not everyone can simply impart some info or opinions and not take stabs at the opinions that oppose their own, or even worse, the posters that made them! IMO, this is not the mark of someone willing to learn or teach anything, that _is_ the mark of someone who wishes to _appear superior_, but that is just my opinion.
 
 
Badbh Catha
14:24 / 13.01.03
THe problems start when people assume they know more than others or that others are just not "in the know" and the teaching through piss-take begins. Not everyone can simply impart some info or opinions and not take stabs at the opinions that oppose their own, or even worse, the posters that made them! – May Tricks

And who decides whether or not someone is "teaching through pisstake"? The person who disagrees with that particular someone? The person who is distincly uncomfortable with what that poster is saying? Is this not an assumption in itself? Who has the right to "assume" here?

I completely disagree with the idea that one cannot advance an opinion or statement at odds with the opinions or statements of other posters without it being a "stab" or a personal slap at those other posters. That's juvenile and overly sensitive – two personality traits that a "leader" or "teacher" can well do without.

How people conduct themselves in interaction with others, online or anywhere else, is a different matter than how one goes around letting other people know that they want to be a leader or teacher. It is important, of course, but not necessarily related to education. If one can't be bothered with reading someone's posts because one considers hir a "twit," then maybe one just isn't meant to pick up the information. Someone else will pick up on it and use it.

As for this:
I hope you are not suggesting I have created this thread in order to learn how to impress others just by simply "looking good"?

Where do you see your name written in my post? Clearly you see it somewhere, or you would not have brought this up. I certainly don't see it anywhere in what I've written. I simply stated, very clearly, that the questions you ask have more to do with how one is percieved than what one has to impart in the way of information.
 
 
Papess
15:38 / 13.01.03
Where do you see your name written in my post? Clearly you see it somewhere, or you would not have brought this up. I certainly don't see it anywhere in what I've written. I simply stated, very clearly, that the questions you ask have more to do with how one is percieved than what one has to impart in the way of information.

Hey, I was just asking BC. You know, I did start the thread and the implication that questions I asked are merely based on "how one wishes to be percieved" is not where I am coming from at all. This _is_ about how information is imparted and how it is accepted. So, maybe this misunderstanding between us is a good example of how that is done...or not done.

And who decides whether or not someone is "teaching through pisstake"? The person who disagrees with that particular someone? The person who is distincly uncomfortable with what that poster is saying? Is this not an assumption in itself? Who has the right to "assume" here?

This not a real mystery to me. They usually involve a certain insulting tone or just plain insults and disparaging comments, no matter how subtle or wrapped in sophistry those comments are, it is hard to hide piss-take because the person who posts it, wants that attention. Oh look, I am so clever, I just tore so and so a new one!, not that anyone actually says this, but the gleeful entertainment value it seems to have for some is appalling to me.

I completely disagree with the idea that one cannot advance an opinion or statement at odds with the opinions or statements of other posters without it being a "stab" or a personal slap at those other posters. That's juvenile and overly sensitive – two personality traits that a "leader" or "teacher" can well do without.

I believe there is a difference between questioning someones' beliefs and making judgements on someone's beliefs. So I agree with you entirely that people should comment even if it they have an opposing opinion, why of course! My issue, is HOW that is done. Simply disagreeing is not the cause for concern.

How people conduct themselves in interaction with others, online or anywhere else, is a different matter than how one goes around letting other people know that they want to be a leader or teacher.

These _are_ different matters. Actually, the part about letting people know they want to be a teacher...ya kinda of lost me. Other than perhaps the now infamous "Joe"...who is letting anyone know they want to be a teacher? My question are not just about proclaimations made to this effect, but subtle insinuations made that you have something to learn and I am going to teach it to you. How does one decide they are the one to do this? So really, I have to say I am a bit confused by your statement above. BTW, this is a discussion on the former rather than the later, however certain conduct does lead to certain perceptions.
 
 
Badbh Catha
17:22 / 13.01.03
I believe there is a difference between questioning someones' beliefs and making judgements on someone's beliefs.

There's absolutlely nothing wrong with passing judgement on an idea or belief – it doesn't necessarily change how the person who holds the idea or belief feels about said idea or belief. I do feel that there is a difference between making judgements on someone's ideas and making judgements on someone, and comments about "teaching through pisstake" and "insulting tone" tends to conflate the two.

If someone thinks an idea or comment is idiotic, s/he should definitely say so. That certainly doesn't mean s/he thinks the person who said an idiotic thing is an idiot. To act as if s/he does because s/he attacked the idea, and to suggest that s/he is guilty of sophistry, "subtle insinuations," or pisstaking is simplistic and demeaning to both parties. It is also utterly, horribly tedious for others reading the interaction.

You know, I did start the thread and the implication that questions I asked are merely based on "how one wishes to be percieved" is not where I am coming from at all.

That doesn't change the fact that the questions you ask can be seen from that angle and utilized for those purposes. I bring this up because a thread like this could very well be used as a manual for suckering people, whether you meant it to be that way or not.

I don't question your personal motives for asking these questions; I question why these questions are necessary at all.
 
 
Papess
19:21 / 13.01.03
I don't question your personal motives for asking these questions; I question why these questions are necessary at all.

Fair enough. I can see how maybe some of this topic touches on the obvious, but some of it is not so black and white. That is just what I want to discuss, the hairy line between piss-take and constructive criticism, how to distinguish them and the attitude most suitable in response. SOme situations and posters, I admit, need to have someone give their head a shake or have their idiocy pointed out, but this is not the case everytime. What is the difference?

By the same token, if you are the recipient of criticism that you find insulting, what are the kinds of things to think about before retorting back in your defense? Is there a certain attitude that this analysis would need in order to be successful? What if that person's criticism really was an insult, how should one behave then? Put them on iggy? Personally, I don't think it solves a whole lot, but then I don't expect to solve anything with this discussion either.

This is just a discussion about how to best communicate here on Barbelith. Whether you have information or opinions to impart or a response to them, is there a certain conduct or decorum that should be engaged in order to do this intelligently? I suspect there is, it just isn't really evident sometimes.

To act as if s/he does because s/he attacked the idea, and to suggest that s/he is guilty of sophistry, "subtle insinuations," or pisstaking is simplistic and demeaning to both parties. It is also utterly, horribly tedious for others reading the interaction.

Why attack anything? Discussion is not about attack and if there is an attack during a discussion, isn't that tedious and demeaning in itself? Or am I picking at semantics? I guess this word "attack" really underlines for me some of the problematic attitudes of some posters, this is a competition to them. This is where that ego thing kicks in for me and I begin to wonder if suggestions like stop whining and adapt is oppressive. So, if someone attacks your ideas, is defending your ideas not acceptable?

I also come from the viewpoint that what I post here, is all I have to share with people here. This makes my post "me" to each of "you". You may not agree with me on this, I suspect, but I think because it is all we really have of each other, we should treat it with respect.

Of course, that is as simple as it gets: respect. What is that you say? Repect is earned? Personally, I don't work that way. I give respect until someone is no longer deemed worthy to give it to from myself. Let's face it, this is not exhalted Grand-poo-ba kind of respect, just basic respect of one another. I mean, who do I think I am to attack another's ideas and opinions? It may be total bullshit in my books but there may be others who agree with it. I just think it best to say my own opinion of the subject and that is enough, if I cannot say something politely, even a criticism. Alas, even polly-anna here can sometimes come across as a bitter old bone-head sometimes.

That doesn't change the fact that the questions you ask can be seen from that angle and utilized for those purposes. I bring this up because a thread like this could very well be used as a manual for suckering people, whether you meant it to be that way or not.

Yeah, I suppose if you look at something from a different angle, you'll extract a different meaning. Just wondering though, what exactly could this "sucker" people into?
 
 
Wrecks City-Zen
20:50 / 15.01.03
Flame on,kids.Flame on.
 
  
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