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Are the philosophical implications of the metaphors we use in a social context real?

 
  

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Rage
23:10 / 04.10.01
Are the philosophical implications of the metaphors we use in a social context real?

Or does it depend on your definition of the word "real"? Does your definition of a word have any relation to your definition of reality? How about the WORD "reality"? Is the definition of the word "reality" relative? Is the belief the definition's of words are relative a relative belief? Is your grandma a relative of yours? Does she have any beliefs? Are her beliefs "real"? How does your grandma define the word "belief?" How do YOU define the word "belief"? You do you define your GRANDMA?

Can we teach our children to learn? How can they learn before they have been taught to learn? Are your arguments about learning arguments that are derived from learning experience, or do you choose not to argue about learning because you haven't learned how to experience rational debate?

Is debate rational? Are you? Is your blue flower? If your flower appears blue, how do you appear to your flower? Is your flower in your head? Is it ALL in your head? Do flowers exist? Does your grandma? Are there flowers in HER head? What if her flower is PURPLE? What if she doesn't HAVE a flower? Is "flower" a metaphor? Is your grandma?

Are the philosophical implications of the metaphors we use in a social context real?
 
 
Ellis
23:15 / 04.10.01
I love you.
 
 
Rage
23:16 / 04.10.01
Thank you.
 
 
Dee Vapr
23:22 / 04.10.01
I suggest you read about the process of learning in some psychology texts + look up relativism in a good philosphical dictionary / encylopedia and follow up the links. It might clear some of this up for you..

and then again it might not.
 
 
Dee Vapr
23:54 / 04.10.01
This is worthwhile and succint. This will probably be of use too.
 
 
nul
03:53 / 05.10.01
*twitch*

uh...

*twitch*

...umm

*collapse*
 
 
Blank Faced Avatar
06:03 / 05.10.01
Yes.
 
 
deletia
06:32 / 05.10.01
I don't see what the problem is. As far as I can tell, one part of this questiuon is addressed by Uncle Friedrich's doctrine of perspectivism - roughly, since language is unable to describe universally and exactly that which it represents, no association of sense and language is entirely "correct", and thus there can be no linguistic (or indeed scientific) truths, as any attrempt to establish such relies on an effectively metaphysical cojoining of our reality and the terms we employ to express it.

Then tie in Saussurean linguistics, with language as a series of signs whose relation to what they signify is arbitrary and differential - the word "grandmother" has no resemblance to the thing described as "grandmother", but is used to show that that thing is not a thing described as "ironing board" or "ten-speed wanking machine". Well, except in extreme circumstances.

So. Yes. How one describes reality is relative, or more precisely subjective, but generally relies on a reasonable degree of consensus on what is described by what. Language is a system open to endless complexity, which will affect how we understand and interact with the things language describes. The two things are not and will not under prevailing conditions be other than arbitrarily connected.

Gorgias, coming from a not dissimilar standpoint in some ways, suggested that nothing existed, and is it did it could not be understood, and if an individual could understand it then he would be unable to explain it. The fact that he made a living as a teacher while espousing this belief suggests that he had truly enormous balls. For him "reality" cannot be described successfully by language. Therefore one cannot learn anything *true*. But one can still learn *things*.

How are we doing?
 
 
Ganesh
07:07 / 05.10.01
'Learning' covers almost every human experience and, in terms of conditioning (classical, operant), modelling, etc., a huge array of non-human ones - so yes, children 'learn' in many spheres outwith those you describe.
 
 
Bill Posters
11:22 / 05.10.01
quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Connection:
How are we doing?


Jerking about in the realms of Noddy Postmodernism, IMHO.

There once was a scholar called Neal,
Who said, "Although nothing is real,
When I sit on a pin,
And it punctures my skin,
I dislike what I fancy I feel."

I said this in relation to that thread Haus kicked off about the use of the word 'girl' to describe any woman under fourty. One or two folk said that they couldn't see how language was an important component of oppression, but I would argue that it absolutely is. This is evidenced by the fact that the Nazis had to use metaphors (verbal and visual) to dehumanise the minority groups they tried to erradicate. Jews, for eg, had to be likened to animals, vermin to be precise, in order to make their destruction feasible. Using "vermin", say, to describe an ethnic group is a dehumanising metaphor which can be shown to have real sociopolitical effects in the real world, like real dead queers and Jews. The metaphorical application of 'girl' to a woman is, if not dehumanising, then infantilsing, and so only a tad less dodgy. (And it's a short step from 'girl' to 'bitch', which implies canine.) I would argue that such language has real sociopolitical effects.

In conclusion: there is a material reality; metaphors twist the way we perceive it; this can lead to oppression; therefore changing language and terminology is not 'the latest example of PC gone mad'TM at all, but a way out of false consciousness.

Oh, and someone once told me that the difference between a trope and a metaphor is that a metaphor is one which we consciously know is false but a trope one whereby we don't. Eg: 'I'm all at sea' is not likely to be taken as a literal representation of one's state if one is standing on dry land when one says it. However, 'Wow, ain't that a pretty girl' is not so obviously 'false consciousness' and yet could very easily lead to a social interaction in which the 'girl', consciously or otherwise, is trapped in a subdominant role. Anyway, maybe someone better up on the lit. crit. front could tell me if this is a useful or current way of distinguishing the trope from the metaphor, and the harmless figure of speech from the harmful one. Regardless, I think my point stands. I think that contrary to Baudrillard, the Gulf War happened, and, contrary to the BNP, I think the holocaust happened too. What's more, metaphors or tropes played a significant part in these real-world events.

Seeing as Adrian Reynolds seems to have gone, to close, I'll quote him: "If it's a metaphor, then what's it a metafor?"
 
 
deletia
11:33 / 05.10.01
I don't theeenk anything you have said necessarily invalidates postmodernism, or at least Uncle F.'s prepostmodernist postmodernism. A common conception about perspectivism is that it renders all viewpoints equal. I would suggest instead that it forces people to navigate meaningful engagements *with* language and the perspective their linguistic structures create. If anything, it's got elemetns of Heidegerian/Existentialist active engagement. And one use of that active engagement is to create new terminologies which might combat false consciousness (or the violence of socially-constructed language).

Would humbly point out that the Gulf War and the Holocaust are argued as not having happened in very different ways...
 
 
Bill Posters
12:05 / 05.10.01
quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Connection:
I don't theeenk anything you have said necessarily invalidates postmodernism, or at least Uncle F.'s prepostmodernist postmodernism.

Depending on the precise meaning of the term postmodernism...

A common conception about perspectivism is that it renders all viewpoints equal.

Indeed a common error. All viewpoints are equal, but some are more equal than others. What upsets me is that the word 'viewpoint' is a metaphor which privilages the sighted over the visually-challenged. But then, I'm sure none of us are so blind as not to be able to see that.

Would humbly point out that the Gulf War and the Holocaust are argued as not having happened in very different ways...


That I must agree with for the most part. But I disagree that you are "humbly" pointing it out. Indeed, I cannot imagine you being humble to anyone on this board were your very life to depend on it.
 
 
deletia
12:16 / 05.10.01
Shows how wrong you are. But that's a story for another day.
 
 
Bill Posters
12:35 / 05.10.01
Pervery doesn't count if that's what you were thinking!
 
 
deletia
13:32 / 05.10.01
Never crossed my mind, guv.
 
 
Fiction Suit Five
18:43 / 05.10.01
Bloody students.
 
 
Rage
18:59 / 05.10.01
I should have known that someone here would actually try to answer these questions.
 
 
Medea Zero
02:05 / 08.10.01
on the questions surrounding blue/purple flowers and dearest grandma, here's a spinozaism..

quote: the concept dog doesn't bark

does that help?
 
 
Bill Posters
12:24 / 08.10.01
That's kewl that is!
 
 
elkhart
06:32 / 20.06.04
Metaphors are frameworks for real meaning, they are simplified explanations for very complex realities. They point to the microcosm because the macrocosm is often too complicated to begin to understand. They allow comprehension at multi layered levels of meaning as trippers and alchemists know. Dreams and visions function as metaphors so that over time you can unfild its meaning, which can be infinite.They are like the index in a book which give a headline of the subject, but you have to always look further past them to gain deeper meaning. Crude social metaphores have the implication of denial of meaning and contibute to social dissolution and chaos. We live in the times of Apocalypse (the revealing)where everything is revealed and layed bare and most easily understood by metaphore. As the Mayan calander suggests 1987-2012 we change consciousness from the old tree of good and evil( extreme duality), to the Tree of Life and Immortality, a quantum leap in consciousness.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:18 / 20.06.04
Gosh. Seen the Matrix, have we?

This thread depresses me. I think we should probably move it to the Conversation.
 
 
Skeleton Camera
19:11 / 20.06.04
A friend o' mine recently caricatured his philosophical side as "pooping while standing up," implying its irrelevance to the wider world. ie: that's a great idea, but what do you do with it? That's my bottom line, which should not reduce the scope of the theoretical. It must be translated, though, to practical manifestation. What's really interesting is, in my humble experience, when I try to do that I frequently encounter some odd psychological bit that needs to be sorted out before that theory can be implemented... Which is part of the 'practicalizing' the idea.

The translation (theory --> practice) may be easier if you're a teacher, or involved in a similar structure where others, in essence, are positioned to run with your ideas. But in the daily trenches a lot of schism seems to exist between the two (here's hoping by 2012...)

And besides, per the Sutra thread, the best philosophy takes you to a position of no-philosophy - distillation into action.

I'm going outside!
 
 
40%
19:55 / 20.06.04
Would anyone like to see my cock?
 
 
---
20:52 / 20.06.04
Gosh. Seen the Matrix, have we?

What is the Matrix?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:13 / 20.06.04
The Matrix is the wool that has... oh, hang on. Reading from the wrong card.

The Matrix is a film series in which some progressively less decent set pieces are interspersed with progressively more wanky cod philosophy, based on a superficial understanding of some basic precepts by two directors who have read Holy Blood, Holy Grail, the Illuminatus Trilogy and nothing else.

It has subsequently become a major text for people who find books far too difficult to follow, and as such have seen The Matrix, read The Invisibles and know approximately what happens in the Illuminatus Trilogy and nothing else.
 
 
---
21:23 / 20.06.04
I was joking! I was a fookin Matrix FREAK for years!

And the Matrix 1 is still probably the best thing i've ever seen......well, one of the best, can't think of any others at the moment.

.........

.......

.....

....

..

.

what is the Rageling?
 
 
---
21:24 / 20.06.04
Would anyone like to see my cock?

Thread cocker.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:27 / 20.06.04
And the Matrix 1 is still probably the best thing i've ever seen......well, one of the best, can't think of any others at the moment.

Well, there's the Invisibles...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:28 / 20.06.04
I've heard tell that the Illuminatus Trilogy is very good as well, but I don't know much about it. Could somebody tell me approximately what happens in it?
 
 
---
21:35 / 20.06.04
Well, there's the Invisibles...

Oh, i just meant films. Speaking of which : where the hezza's the Invisibles film got to?

No film companies grown the balls to fund/release it yet?

Bloody tarts.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:38 / 20.06.04
Oh, yes. Because those WEAK film companies can't handle the TRUTH! Not the TRUTH! that GEORGE MORRISON tells us. NO!

Why is there no Invisibles movie. Well, let's see. Why is the Neil Gaiman movie Mirror Mask going straight to video?

Because the distributors are WEAK! They haven't got the BALLS!

Ahem.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
21:41 / 20.06.04
This is the film that changed my life, it just seemed to really get in to my brain and rearrange it. I don't know what its influences are but I'd love to know because this is the best film ever.

 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:42 / 20.06.04
Apparently the Matrix stole all Geoff Murchison's best ideas. And sent them back in time to Robert Antoin de Caunes.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
21:48 / 20.06.04
Rob, don't listen to all these cynical sheeple with their sceptically mocking scepticism (Anna de Logardiere, you are the worst of all - do you not realise that naked female flesh is one of the opiates of the sheeple* used by Hollywood and other evil Overlords to keep the idle masses in check?). You really are one of the enlightened, possibly 'the' 'one'. Search your heart: you know it to be true. Deep down, I think you've always known. And so have I. Even before the day we met. I've always known someone like you existed.

*Other opiates = alcohol, hamburgers, fun.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:51 / 20.06.04
*Other opiates = alcohol, hamburgers, fun.

And opium.

OR IS IT???
 
  

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