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Portuguese Literature

 
 
The Photographer in Blowup
20:17 / 10.01.03
On the other day i was commenting to some friends how much i dislike portuguese literature and that outside Portugal it isn't read/known at all; no point saying they didn't like what i said.

So to know if what i said is far from the truth - or not - i would ask you all to answer this simple question:

From the list of writers and books below, tell me if you know/read any before:

Luis Vaz de Camoes
Eça de Queiroz
Almeida Garrett
Camilo Castelo Branco
Antonio Ferreira
Fernando Pessoa
Gil Vicente
Cesario Verde
Virgilio Ferreira
Jose Saramago

The Lusiads
Travels On My Homeland
The Maias
The Mandarin
Frei Luis Of Sousa
The Tragedy On The Street Of Flowers
The Green Book of Cesario Verde
The Book Of Disquiet
The Gospel According to Jesus Christ
The Stone Raft


These are just some, but if you have read anything else apart from the mentioned, feel free to post it.

Thank you,
Luis
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
20:54 / 10.01.03
Well, I think you were pretty much right as far as the Anglophone world goes (though Saramago is easily available in translation, especially since he won the Nobel). I haven't read anything except a few poems by Pessoa, but I have heard of:

Luis Vaz de Camoes
Eça de Queiroz
Fernando Pessoa
Gil Vicente
Jose Saramago

and

The Lusiads
The Maias
The Book Of Disquiet

... which is all rather shaming. On the other hand, if you asked me to name Spanish authors, I'd get stuck after Cervantes and S. Ignatius de Loyola, so... Portugal is top Iberian literary dog...
 
 
The Photographer in Blowup
22:29 / 10.01.03
Well, I think you were pretty much right as far as the Anglophone world goes (though Saramago is easily available in translation, especially since he won the Nobel).

Oh, i think all of them are easily available - Saramago more than the others, yes - but i think it's no so much a question of whether they're translated or not as it is whether they're good enough to justify a translation - and, in my opinion, i believe portuguese literature doesn't meet the standards of general literature.

But you've read Fernando Pessoa, Kit-Cat? Which one? (really hope you get the joke)
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
08:54 / 11.01.03
Oh, har har
 
 
The Photographer in Blowup
09:52 / 11.01.03
You see, Pessoa wrote under many different identities: mind you, these weren't crude pseudomyns, but real distinct personae: heteronyms.

They were:
Ricardo Reis
Alvaro dos Campos
Alberto Caeiro

Each had a different biography, a diferent attitude towards life, different professions (even that), different clothing, different literay styles - knowing each style, it's possible to identify to which one a certain poem belongs just from reading it.

Then there was another: Bernardo Soares, a bookkeeper, who wrote not in verse but prose, and wrote The Book of Disquietude, his biography; mind you, not Pessoa's biography, Soare's biography - weird?

All in all, Pessoa created 72 heteronyms.

Autopsychography

The poet is a faker
Who’s so good at his act
He even fakes the pain
Of pain he feels in fact.

And those who read his words
Will feel in what he wrote
Neither of the pains he has
But just the one they don’t.

And so around its track
This thing called the heart winds,
A little clockwork train
To entertain our minds.


Fernando Pessoa (himself)
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
10:38 / 11.01.03
Yeah, I remember reading about it - last year? - when they finally brought out a Modern Classics edition of The Book of Disquiet - English publishing is notoriously bad at publishing translated literature, though it does seem to be getting a bit better (dunno what will happen now that Harvill has been bought out by a major, mind - Murakami's already moved over to Vintage).
 
 
grant
16:44 / 13.01.03
I've read a little of The Lusiads, in part because my uncle's a professor. It didn't really grab me.

(I also tried to help him translate a short poem by Camoes, but I just have a little Spanish, so it was more for fun and less for understanding what the heck was going on.)

I've heard of:
Camilo Castelo Branco
Fernando Pessoa
Gil Vicente
Jose Saramago

And may well have read short stories or excerpts without retaining the name (something I do very often).

I would have remembered Ferreiras, cuz that's my grandmother's maiden name.
 
 
deja_vroom
17:11 / 13.01.03
but i think it's no so much a question of whether they're translated or not as it is whether they're good enough to justify a translation - and, in my opinion, i believe portuguese literature doesn't meet the standards of general literature.

In which grounds do you justify this statement, L M Rosa?
And what are the standards of general literature?
 
 
The Photographer in Blowup
20:13 / 13.01.03
I said:

but I think it's not so much a question of whether they're translated or not as it is whether they're good enough to justify a translation - and, in my opinion, I believe portuguese literature doesn't meet the standards of general literature.

and Jupiter asked:

In which grounds do you justify this statement, L M Rosa?
And what are the standards of general literature?


First of all, let me tell you I narrowed the list to the creme de la creme of Portugese writers - I’m not talking about popular writers who would justify a translation in economical terms, but writers whose work is good in itself for literary achievement rather than following a profitable formula.

Because in Portugal nowadays, there are some 'rules' a writer must follow to achieve fame and money: can't be more than 250 pages; the book must have always a happy ending, a marriage being optional; it must always be a story of success; and humour and swearing are more important than characterisation, setting, plot. Basically, as long as the main character wins in the end, the book is bound to be a success. I can't find a worst formula unless I try a Harlequin novel, or the Cinderella story over and over again.

Of course, all this is an illusion: that's not how real life is, but this is what the public wants, and so that's what modern writers write; these are what I call 'hacks' because they write simply for the money.

So I’m concentrating on writers who are good for their literary craft rather than their will to please the masses.

Now, as to what I call 'standards of general literature' - for it's my opinion only, which I made from comparing portuguese with 'foreign' literature, and I’m not asking you to agree with me:

A book should deal with pertinent matters that are part of our daily lives, without minimising its relevance and exposing its true cruel reality - I’m talking books on war, drugs, child molestation shouldn't submit to hollywoodised visions just because people don't want to face reality or have a political correct conception of it -; every time a book deals with a theme that was explored by past books, it should write it from a new point of view to bring a different aspect to light and thus be independent in itself; a writer shouldn't start a novel thinking it will automatically be accepted by the public, but must nevertheless deal with subjects that might upset society, bring such subjects to the public fore for awareness, which leads me to another point: books are educational tools, devices to raise consciences and even change society.

Of course, books must also be entertaining: don't think books would sell at all if they didn't entertain; irony, sarcasm and wit à la Wilde are excellent ways of captivating the reader - and these latter qualities are what is lacking in portuguese literature, in my opinion.

This is how I see P. literature, and if you would read it you would agree: it's melancholic without being captivating - Kafka's The Process is very melancholic, but also very entertaining and didactic - it's very repetitive in that all books tackle the same subject over again - in truth, I think we're still Romantics here - and prefer the depth of feeling rather than form or intellectual ideas; it also lacks something I still haven't mentioned about the 'standards of general literature': P literature doesn't stimulate me or inspire me, it doesn't make me think beyond what I’m reading, and it's very static and devoid of passion.

You might think, Jupiter, that I’m making a bleak and unfair portrait of it all, but I can't justify my grounds until you read a portuguese book to see for yourself; perhaps then you'll disagree, I don't know, this is simply how I see it, and everyone else I know thinks otherwise.

But, to quote Grant, It didn't really grab me.
 
 
at the scarwash
21:03 / 13.01.03
saramago is the only portuguese writer i've read, but i really liked Blindness and The History of the Siege of Lisbon. My friend Ty, to whom I recommended it ended up teaching it rather successfully to inner city high school kids in an advanced placement English class.
 
 
The Photographer in Blowup
21:30 / 13.01.03
If you enjoyed Saramago's Blindness, then you should also try The Gospel According to Jesus Christ - his most polemic work to date and what really brought him to the fore: a sort of exception in the boring literature of my country.
 
 
deja_vroom
09:57 / 14.01.03
Mmm. I think I cannot really disagree or agree with you, since I'm not aware of the current state of the literary environment in Portugal. But you cannot mention Eça de Queiroz and Fernando Pessoa without acknowledging that Potuguese literature, if not as significant today as it was in the past, has more than enough credentials to grant its inclusion amongst the finest literature in the world. "A Ilustre Casa de Ramires", santo Deus. "Tabacaria", por São Gabriel e os arcanjos!
You complain about the appalling current state of literature in your country. I think that, if you listen to what the French, the German, the British (don't even let me start with Brazilians) etc are saying, you will find similar complaints.
 
 
The Photographer in Blowup
12:07 / 14.01.03
Indeed, Eça and Pessoa are two excellent writers, but i don't see where you got the idea that P. literature was significant in the past, because it was always overshadowed by other other countries, and with good reasons too: Portugal never started new literary movements, if anything it was actually always influenced by foreign trends, mostly the 19th french romantic literature, of which Eça's work is an example; P. literature must be the less original in the world, in that it never found its own voice, it simply followed the 'hype' without trying to contribute with something new.

But, Jupiter, that there is bad literature - the 'hack' sort of one - everyone knows, it's everywhere; that's why i said i wasn't including my country's popular writers of the moment, just the best. And i admit they're mostly good, have great writing skills, but fall short on two things: their work is not innovative, it still has that romantic and bucolic flavour of 19th century literature, that dos Passos, Steinbeck and Hemmingway, just to name a few, put an end to at the turn of the century - these writers became famous for shwoing the world how it really was, not by making fairy-tales about how a given writer would like the world to be.

They're just not too realist enough, and that's what the public wants mostly: realism, something to identify themselves with from the everyday life events. Instead, here in my country, we keep getting pink love stories.
 
 
deja_vroom
13:30 / 14.01.03
Would you mind recommending some author of this Fluffy-Pink generation that I could check?

Also, when I used the term "significant" to refer to P. Literature, I didn't have in mind the impact it might have had on other countries, or its importance in the general literary scene. Because I know you're right in saying that Portugal is frequently amiss from those periodic "Best 100 Books Of The Century" lists (a scenario that Jose Saramago might be capable of changing in the future, who knows).

But - I referred only to the undeniable *greatness* that is to be found within those works. They rank amongst the finest of the literary works, and if you call them derivative, well, that is not a derogatory characteristic per se, it all depends on which viewpoint you choose to analyze a given body of work: Baroque artists didn't value originality and self-identity, for instance: Remember - Shakespeare's most memorable plays weren't original stories, for instance. It was *how* he told them.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
21:35 / 14.01.03
They're just not too realist enough, and that's what the public wants mostly: realism, something to identify themselves with from the everyday life events. Instead, here in my country, we keep getting pink love stories.

Rosa - I can see that you want realism and something which tells you things which you feel are real and with which you can identify, both from this and from your posts in the hack thread (though slightly thrown by your love of Wilde - hard to think of anything less realist, in many ways...). But, given that you say that writers are mostly hacks who churn out books for money (i.e. the books have to sell), and that most of the books available are pink love stories (I am imagining this to be like chick-lit, am I right? Fluffy novels for city girls to read on the tube, yes?), presumably that's what the public really do want. I think it's easy to (mentally) impose one's own wishes onto the public in the belief that that must be what they really want - but actually that's something that one should be very careful about.

Of course the counter argument to this would be that if people can't get the decent books because the publishers are only interested in getting out pink love stories, it's impossible to tell whether they really want realist novels (or fantasy novels, or whichever style of writing you wish to promote). There's something in that, but it's not usually as bad as it's made to appear by literary columnists. Over here it's a perennial argument - chick-lit spells the death of the British novel, etc. - when in fact the industry still seems to be publishing a lot of literary fiction (much of it pretty bad, but that's the 99% law in operation).

But yeah, my basic point was - because you think that realism is the apogee of literature doesn't mean that everyone will agree with you, or that they're wrong if they don't agree with you.

(I'd argue that Hemingway is as much a creator of his own world as any 19th century writer as well - 'realism' is a literary style...)
 
 
The Photographer in Blowup
18:46 / 15.01.03
I not so sure about, Kit-Cat.

If a book is genuinely good, it will sell because of itself, not necessarily because that's what the public wants, or whether it follows a profitable formula.

I like to be surprised by what i read, but here only the writers' names on the cover and the characters' names change. If the market prefers the formula in detriment of the originality, then i really do think all the others are wrong and i'm right.

I know i'm being way too egoccentric, but don't think wishing a bit of originality back is so wrong. And if the writers start copying each other out for profit, that really damages literature, because not only does it stagnate, it also can't explore the same theme for too long until it starts to lose its realism - i'm talking about people starting to prefer stereotyped images to what's true.

But, like i already said, good writers can sell without living in formulas: don't think Hemingway wrote what the public wanted, but tell me if his books didn't sell anyway? But i'm not so naive that i don't know the editors really have a blame on all this: of course they must sell what the public wants, but hasn't originality always been profitable also?

And the (I am imagining this to be like chick-lit, am I right? Fluffy novels for city girls to read on the tube, yes?) was a real perfect mental image of my country, downright perfect to subway detail.

Anyway, the question of realism is even stranger if you understand that in my country there's no such thing as horror/crime/sci-fi/fantasy writers; and yet, the public here doesn't exactly like realism either. It's weird, all seems to just orbit around Fluffy novels, something in the middle of the both extremities.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
19:56 / 15.01.03
That's interesting. Do you get much published in translation from other languages?

On originality: 'Your book is both good and original. Unfortunately, the parts that were good were not original, and the parts that were original were not good.' (Can't remember who said that - Shaw?). Original fiction isn't necessarily the same thing as good fiction; and you won't necessarily be surprised by what you read in a work of literary fiction, even if it is good. I do think it is possible for themes to be revisited by many authors without them becoming exhausted; I think each author might bring something slightly different to the theme or subject, whether that is through their style or their ideas about it, their setting, whatever. And if their depiction isn't particularly realistic, I don't think that's a problem so long as I get something out of it. I suppose it depends what you mean by realism - might help if you gave us a definition here?

I think originality/good writing isn't necessarily profitable either - I expect most publishing houses keep themselves afloat on their popular and genre lists rather than their literary lists; not that literary stuff doesn't sell, it does, and occasionally you get a huge seller (I suppose Atonement counts here, among others), just that it doesn't sell as much.

I can understand your frustration with formulaic writing, but I think it's perfectly valid to read that sort of thing if you enjoy it - there's nothing wrong with reading for enjoyment, and why take that away from people? If there really is nothing else out there, then maybe you do have a problem - but as I said above, I am totally unfamiliar with Portuguese literature, so I'll have to take your word for it...

(BTW I must admit that I think fluff has its place - quite fond of a bit of fluff myself, though I'm not a big fan of the pink love story sort - prefer children's fantasy and school stories on the whole; but I don't think a literary diet of all fluff is especially good for the brain-teeth)
 
 
The Photographer in Blowup
09:28 / 16.01.03
Funny you mention children's fantasy: already in the 19th century, one of our writers, Eça de Queiroz - he was an embassador in England then and wrote a series of letters about that country, and later collected them in Letters From England - said that one of the problems in Portugal was that there were no children books, like Alice in Wonderland, The Secret Garden, A Little Princess, and thus children's education was very harmed by that. And nowadays, we still don't have that many writers writing for children. Mostly it's all imported.

Basically, all the other genres come from translations, as we don't have writers doing anything besides Fluffy novels.

Anyway, when i read for fun, i really don't seek much realism like i intend to find in The Grapes Of Wrath: but i intend the characters to be real, as in flawed, with emotional conflicts, who suffer the consequences of their mistakes and actions; that don't win always, that things aren't drawn simply as 'good' and 'bad' - i like a bit of ambiguity - that the characters actually have to solve their problems without a Deus Ex Machina ending.

But i seldom get that; the characters are usually stereotyped, and since you've read some Fluffy pink novels too then you must know what i mean. But if that's what everyone else reads, i'm really the minority.

I think there's a market for other genres in Portugal, and there are enough translations every year, but i have to admit i never entered a shop and saw a person picking up from the shelf a novel by Stephen King, or Agatha Christie, or Irvine Welsh. So maybe it's not really a question of diversity, but Fluffy novels are really just what they want - which is even worst, i think.
 
  
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