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Taking a STAND against ID cards

 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
16:57 / 10.01.03
The people at STAND have a handy dandy e-fax facility for sending messages to the Home Office bods looking at bringing in ID cards, why don't you all go and make use of this to register your dislike of the project, and then maybe fax your MP too?
 
 
gingerbop
15:09 / 12.01.03
To be honest, I dont see a huge problem with it. Loads and loads of people and companies already have our details and are flingin them about all over the place. The government spend £1.5 billion on stupider things than that all the time. I dont really think its a big breach in human rights, and i dont know about everyone else but i would mind havin one... especially when im 18 and still a midget- theyl let me in the pub :-)
 
 
Tryphena Absent
16:09 / 12.01.03
Well gingerbop I don't believe that it's right to restrict the rights of 16 year olds to sneak in to pubs and drink illegally and that is precisely what would happen if we had ID cards. That and the fact that it's really not going to work properly and supposing that it did I would not want everyone to categorise me in to boxes stating caucasian, female blah blah. Loads and loads of people don't have all of our details but if ID cards are instituted loads and loads of people will know almost everything.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
16:50 / 12.01.03
Ginge- I'm uneasy about bringing in ID cards anyway, what makes me object strongly is the fact that 5 or 6 years down the line it could be worse, the cards are non-mandatory initially, how long before it could become mandatory to carry them, punishable by a fine or jail time? And a centralised store makes it even easier to track and act against innocent people legally protesting than criminals using fake IDs going around doing their shit, and for a computer system to cover everyone in the UK, how much money is that that could be used on our schools, hospitals, transport etc?
 
 
Linus Dunce
17:45 / 12.01.03
i would mind havin one... especially when im 18 and still a midget- theyl let me in the pub :-)

So, you don't mind giving the Home Office an easy way to collect information on your drinking habits? Or any other aspects of your personal life. Of course, you are innocent so you have nothing to fear. Good luck.
 
 
Fist Fun
18:14 / 12.01.03
Depends what they store on it but I'm with Gingerbop on this one. I generally agree with the broad scope of criminal law in the UK and if this can help apply it then why not.

It would have to be a proven effective system though. The point about criminals carrying fake ID is a good one and there would have to be a justification for the cost (although I don't think the capital expenditure is going to have a huge knock on effect on school, health spending, etc).
 
 
Linus Dunce
20:59 / 12.01.03
But how will cards enforce the law? I suppose you could rig up some kind of capacitor in the card's chip to give the carrier an electric shock if they start to do anything illegal ... but then those cunning crooks will probably leave their cards at home.

And if anonymity is so unimportant, why are we using noms de plume on this board?
 
 
bjacques
21:02 / 12.01.03
There are a lot of reasons why it's bad, from the philosophical to the practical, at all stages in the process.

Philosophical: it essentially means you always have to prove your identity, even when you're not doing anything to warrant government attention--driving, voting, being arrested for a crime, for example. The hand of the law is permanently on your shoulder, which flies in the face of (Anglo-American, anyway) civic tradition.

In the U.S., a national ID card is still difficult to sell politically, even after the attacks and with the nosiest cabinet since Nixon. Resident aliens in pretty much all countries have to carry them (I'm a US citizen living in Amsterdam, so I have one), but not citizens in the freer ones.

As a practical matter, building a national ID apparatus should require extra care, but it'll be farmed out to the private company that puts in the lowest bid. There'll be a lot of vague mumbling about "safeguards" but nothing concrete. Since it's the Blair government, they'd probably sell your data to telemarketers and spin it as some kind of "public/private partnership."

Spread all the FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) you can about this, but stress practical, everyday problems; don't cry Big Brother, because he's already here and people are used to him by now.

And in a few years we'll have this debate again, over requiring everybody to have subcutaneous transponders. At their own expense.
 
 
Tezcatlipoca
06:41 / 13.01.03
Since it's the Blair government, they'd probably sell your data to telemarketers and spin it as some kind of "public/private partnership."

And that is part of my concern. Quite simply, I do not trust this - or any - government to use the information responsibly.
 
 
Linus Dunce
12:10 / 13.01.03
Indeed. They are already selling information from the electoral register.

But I think it will go further than that. If this were my project, I'd be thinking of setting up relational databases to map social networks. Purely to catch the terrorists and criminals, you understand. I can't do this yet because there's a lot of duplicated, missing and out-of-date information, but once the population is nicely tagged up with new serial numbers, it'll be a breeze.

And I'd be thinking of making the system appear as though it was secure by only giving away minimal information, but I wouldn't make it too hard for corporations to use the new handles everyone will have. They can then share lifestyle information and work out who deserves good interest rates, insurance premiums, job promotion, etc. And who doesn't. And of course, like I do now, I will sell some of my own info to them so they can verify financial transactions. This will be good for the economy. And will provide me with more info.

After encouraging public transport systems to use the cards to identify ticket fraudsters among the paying passengers, I'd be planning to use the serial numbers to track all the people who caught the tube to Marble Arch on a day there was a political rally on in Hyde Park. I'd also like to capture their biometric data (e.g. the iris scans the govt. doc refers to) on site and match it to my databases. I don't think I can do this yet without their cooperation, but it'll only be a couple of years before computer speed and image recognition software catches up. Using my social network database, I could then work out who the ringleaders are, and/or assess the profiles of the attendees to work out if the demo needs to be taken seriously.

Don't worry, you have nothing to fear. I won't make any mistakes. And surely you agree that crime and illegal immigration are getting out of hand. We have to do this.

But hey, it's not my project.
 
 
Fist Fun
10:33 / 15.01.03
Ignatius J wrote :
But how will cards enforce the law?


According to the site identity fraud costs at least 1.3bn annually. If we compare this to the estimated 1.5 billion cost of the scheme over ten years there is at, least superficially, one possible advantage. Of course it isn't clear that it would actually be effective against this type of fraud

Regarding the idea that ID cards would be used to monitor and harass innocent people - not sure how realistic this is. Even so it doesn't mean we should entirely reject the idea. Instead we should make sure that any scheme is transparent, free from corruption, effective and worth the cost before it is accepted.
 
 
Linus Dunce
11:18 / 15.01.03
Of course it isn't clear that it would actually be effective against this type of fraud.

You've answered the question here.

Regarding the idea that ID cards would be used to monitor and harass innocent people - not sure how realistic this is.

Ah, Britons' trust of their own government always amazes me. It's not really a case of would, rather could. There are no effective "checks and balances" that I can find in the Home Office document. Technology and politics aren't going to stand still and we may find ourselves ruing the day we agreed to this. And that's reason enough.

Moreover, should the cards be linked to biometric data as looks likely, the cards will encourage the private sector to collect biometric data for identification purposes. Do you really think corporations can be trusted not to misuse this data?
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
12:40 / 15.01.03
Buk Regarding the idea that ID cards would be used to monitor and harass innocent people - not sure how realistic this is.

Well, think how many things humanity has found to persecute itself over in the past, left-hands, red hair, being gay, being a woman... So why put it all together in one place so it's easier to find?

Of course, it could never happen here... with a Government with no real power given to the left wing. The one thing the Labour government is unwilling to legislate on too much is personal morality, but what if that changed? The election of Bush has triggered a massive backlash against the rights that minorities had won in the last decade, it's not unreasonable to think that something similar could happen here. Then what your card says about you could become vitally important.

Of course then you lie. You try to hide the truth about yourself which is another reason why cards are useless.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
13:54 / 14.07.03
In this Telegraph article it says that Blunkett is going to announce this legislation as a 'forthcoming attraction' for the next parliamentary year, he's announcing it on the last day of Parliament when probably people will not be that inclined to make a fuss. I also suspect that if the news pick up on it then we'll hear either Thursday night or Friday that Campbell has resigned, to divert attention.
 
  
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