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High ceremonial magus or filthy witch?

  
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:20 / 09.01.03
from another thread:

Let us stop with the pussyfooting around and the simple base witchcraft and shamanism and start doing things hardcore, some start with Chaos magic but this too is overly simple. We need to get focused on the high level occult magicks and ippssissimal works.

I would have to disagree quite strongly with this position. I'm of the opinion that 'Simple, base witchcraft and shamanism' is the roots and soul of magick and would argue that the most important magickal work that can be done is simply looking after your community and tribe (however you may define them). A person who uses their skills to guide the people they care about through turbulence, impresses me far more than someone who spends their entire magickal life performing high arts in a secluded temple in order to evolve the consciousness of the planet, or whatever. I attribute much value to getting things done in the real world and being able to give people help where needed, and this is the work of the shaman and the witch.

Therefore, this is a thread for the critical comparison of the role of high ceremonial magician as opposed to shaman/sorceror. The respective advantages/disadvantages of identifying with either of these approaches to magick, and why individual practitioners feel drawn to one path in preference to the other.
 
 
Badbh Catha
14:34 / 09.01.03
Whoever wrote that quote has yet to learn the valuable Magickal lesson of not letting one's ego get in the way of one's work.

Ceremonial Magick is a very beautiful and valid path. It also tends to attract people who need to feel "better than" or "higher than" other people. While that by no means is the case for all ceremonial magickians, inflated egos do tend to often crop up as an issue with that particular tradition.
 
 
Badbh Catha
14:48 / 09.01.03
I'm of the opinion that 'Simple, base witchcraft and shamanism' is the roots and soul of magick and would argue that the most important magickal work that can be done is simply looking after your community and tribe (however you may define them). – Gypsy Lantern

And, as you no doubt well know, there's nothing "simple" about it – it's bloody hard work actually!

The paths of the Shaman and the Witch are often touted as simplistic, yet they are extremely difficult and complicated paths to follow.
 
 
Devil's Avocado
14:54 / 09.01.03
"Ceremonial Magick is a very beautiful and valid path. It also tends to attract people who need to feel "better than" or "higher than" other people. While that by no means is the case for all ceremonial magickians, inflated egos do tend to often crop up as an issue with that particular tradition."

I completely agree. However this is not the case with the writer of that quote.

As for definitions of 'community'; What good would it be saving your family and friends if the whole country was in danger?
Ok crap analogy time: why does the Justice League America exist? Why is Batman in it? He has a clear responsibility to his community (Gotham) but he recognises if aliens from space came to take over the planet that would include Gotham too, so - reluctantly (as he rightly knows he is no cosmic player, no Superman) he is present.
I see it as just a matter of perspective. We all have a local community, but we are also all citizens of planet earth.
I get fucked off if I see one person victimising another on my street, but I still get fucked off at the corporate rape of this planet and it's resources. Maybe that's just me.
 
 
MrCoffeeBean
15:03 / 09.01.03
"Let us stop with the pussyfooting around and the simple base witchcraft and shamanism and start doing things hardcore, some start with Chaos magic but this too is overly simple. We need to get focused on the high level occult magicks and ippssissimal works."

Thats one of the dumbest quotes i ever read abot magick. That person clearley dont know shit. Espicialy about shamanism and witchcraft. A person saying that is not even worth taking serious. That willl only show that that person NEVER gonna be a good magician. certanly not a good chaos magician. "My magick is better than youre magick" get the fuck out of here, we have no use for you.


im more drawn to shamanism and wicca and witchcraft simply because it , to me, seems to be more directed towards working in everyday life. Its about chanching things here and now. Not somewhere else, its about DOING. And experience youre sorroudings. More about Living magick.

Cermoniel magick is way too much theater and roleplaying and being "The Big Cool Magickian", for a little bit more than 10, years ago i hang around some death/black metal folks, some satanist magicians and stuff were around, too much fucking bragging, pretending, talking instead of actualy doing. And then its too much Stuff and things involved "own that and that and a silly looking hat like this..." not my thing...

Thats why i find Chaos magick perfect, do what you will and with what you will... No agenda to follow, except youre own, no rules, no uniform...

The only realy big problem in magick today as i see it are drugs. I dont trust anyone using that shit in magick. You cant trust youre senses and youre body on drugs. I even avoid alcohol when doing magick.
 
 
Papess
15:58 / 09.01.03
I have gone the ceremonial, high magick route before, I still do sometimes. I find that all that ceremony is used to induce the same states acheived in shamanism, anyway. Sometimes, my mind needs all the prompting that ceremonial magick delivers. Other times, it just happens without all the rich tapestry of alpha-numerics and majestic pagentry.

Chaos Magick works well for me because if something is not working out, I can resort to other methods within it's framework.

This seems to piss off alot of re-cons though.
 
 
illmatic
16:54 / 09.01.03
Interesting points. Well, I disagree with the quote above because I think Shamanism and witchcraft are perfectly valid traditions in their own right. I don't think ceremonial magick is in any way better - it's arguable it's worse in a lot of ways. (However this is not to knock anyone's indvidual practice).

As to the broader issue - re. shamanism and witchcraft. I wonder if these traditions have only undergone such a upsurge in recent years (ie the last 20-40) because the time is right for our understanding of them. I'm reminded of a Hakim Bey quote about the caves at Lascax (occurence of some of the earliest known wall paintings) where he stated that the caves may have been discovered many times. It's only in recent years that we've had "eyes to see" and value the painting in their own right - an earlier, more colonial viewpoint might have simply dismissed those paintings as primitive scribblings, "beneath us". Perhaps in the same way, now we can see and appreciate other traditions in themselves - as well as our own forgotten "folk" traditons like witchcraft - it's interesting that the Runic mysteries have made a resurgence in a similar time period.

The split between "high" and "low" magick seems to me to come from an earlier time - seems 19th Century to me, if not earlier, and it seems very Christian influenced - magick aligning itself with the dominant belief system of the day, and characterising itself as "good" and as always this invokes the corresponding fantasy of "evil". Thinking about it I suppose this dates all the way back to the Witch Craze (This is not to knock Christianity either - I'm aware there are some practioners on this board who're exploring alternative Christianity).

Asa: As to your point, yeah, I appreciate we are all part of the same community, in a sense. However, I am chary of magick projects that are as broad in nature as to address global concerns, it just doesn't seem real and immediate to me. Seems to easy to sail off into an astral fantasy. Also if this is couched in apocalyptic terms it reminds me to much of the multitude of millenial cults that have been and gone. If you can say there's one specific set of circumstances etc. that you're concerned with then fine, but broad and general threats don't do anything for me.
 
 
Bill Posters
16:54 / 09.01.03
Sorry, what's a re-con?
 
 
cusm
17:28 / 09.01.03
I have to note that the community oriented aspects are less those of magick itself, as its application. Magick is science; tools, techniques and power. What you do with it is often the subject of religion.

To that end, I take a procedural view of the "high/low" dichodomy. Ceremonial magick is discrete, making use of specific correspondences in action, word, item, and even time. It allows one to follow a recipe to gain a given effect. Witchcraft/shamanism is more abstract, making use of situation, person, spirit, and intuition. A practicioner of "low" magick is less likely to be able to tell you how they did something, so much as a general set of guidelines to follow in practice.

The high/low bias is a completely moral and subjective one, in saying that one way is inherently better than the other. Each have their strengths.

Now, the self vs community application is one I tend to think of more in terms of "right/left" or "white/black", if you need to use those. It is a simple enough duality to decide: Are you doing this for your own benefit, or for the benefit of others? Are you giving or taking? Is this like a job to you, or a personal amusement? Either side of this divide can be found in either style of practice above, so one can't judge the method as the intent.
 
 
LVX23
18:42 / 09.01.03
Just a side note on MrCoffeeBean's comment about drugs...

"The only realy big problem in magick today as i see it are drugs. I dont trust anyone using that shit in magick. You cant trust youre senses and youre body on drugs. I even avoid alcohol when doing magick."

First, using the term "drugs" to refer only to certain "bad" drugs is a poor use of language, and very common in this age of drug hysteria. When you say "drugs" do you include aspirin? or how about coffee? Nicotine? These are all drugs, and the latter 2 are psychoactive. If you objects to "certain drugs", then be specific about which ones.

Secondly, the use of psychoactive compounds for purposes of trance, visualization, and gnosis has been occuring on this planet for millenia. Examples are psilocybin mushrooms, the datura's, morning glory seeds and rye fungus, ayahuasca brews, various tryptamines, and cannabis. I can refer you to any number of sociological and anthropological texts relating the use of these allies by native shaman and sorcerer's. Likewise, I myself attribute much of my knowledge, personal awareness, self-esteem, success, and my relationship with the magickal universe to my ongoing use of psychedelics and cannabis. My first LSD experience when I was 16 was the biggest catalyst to my continued self-analysis and drive to understand more of the world around me without slipping into the empty mechanism of science. I've had very focused, intellectualized experiences which allowed me to visualize in great detail the workings of my body and the nature it is embedded in, and I've had ego-shattering shamanic journeys which took me to states that are transcendent of any attempt to intellectualize or discuss in words. These experiences are not for everyone and should only be embarked upon with the utmost caution, but they are just as valid and real as Dervish dancing or Buddhist meditation or physical exhaustion or moshing.

Finally, it's fair to say that you personally have had bad experiences with these substances, or that you have known people who have bad experiences or hurt themselves. But it's not fair to condemn anyone else who may use them, or to outright assume that someone using them is foolish, or to discount the experiences of those of us who have used these tools with great success and personal insight. If you are referring to heroin, cocaine, or methamphetamine, then I will allow you a little space as I have seen these substances destroy many people - but please be specific about which drugs you feel are bad and why. Don't just say "drugs are bad". We get that propoganda shoved down our throats every day by the media.
 
 
Badbh Catha
19:00 / 09.01.03
Perhaps it might be best to start a new thread on the topic of whether or not drugs are useful in Magickal practice and if so, under what circumstances?
 
 
Papess
19:04 / 09.01.03
re-con: Reconstructionists
 
 
cusm
19:54 / 09.01.03
Or, pick up an old thread on the topic of drugs if we wish to explore this further.
 
 
Mike
20:45 / 09.01.03
http://www.deoxy.org has lots of relevant info on drugs in magick, including effects of LSD on chakras, etc

A Short Guide About Hallucinogenic Drugs For the Explorers of Inner Space - http://www.deoxy.org/psyguide.htm
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:15 / 10.01.03
As for definitions of 'community'; What good would it be saving your family and friends if the whole country was in danger? I see it as just a matter of perspective. We all have a local community, but we are also all citizens of planet earth.

This brings us right back into the territory of the Peace Mango/Global workings threads doesnt it. I think the essence of this debate centres around the difficulty in verifying the objective validity of large scale workings to effect change at a global level. My approach is a kind of magickal "think globally, act locally" strategy, for example if I wanted to influence something in the sphere of global affairs I would target a specific individual intimately connected with the decision making process, rather than try to tackle the entire concept of 'de-forestation' through ritual practice. With this approach your results are self evident, you know whether or not the sorcery has worked or if it needs some fine tuning. It's the butterfly effect, one magickal bullet at the right place and right time can change the world.

I find the "big scale change global consciousness in a series of workings" approach unsatisfying and tend to shy away from it. It's very difficult to accurately assess whether or not your actions are having any real noticable effect on world affairs or global consciousness, and it's very easy to look at an incredibly complex global situation and find abundant evidence proving that you have saved the world, just as it is very easy for someone else to find similar strong evidence that proves you've done nothing but wander around a room making some strange noises.
 
 
Bill Posters
15:58 / 10.01.03
Re-constructionists?! Re-inventionists more like! But ta for that, it's a term I was unfamiliar with.

Um, I want to put this nicely but IMHO the "hardcore" and "pussyfooting" in the initial comment which sparked this thread sound a bit too 'Vietnam film script' for me. But whatthefuck, it's one's own path, and if a man wants to do a git 'ard stomp along it, then fair enough.
 
 
Badbh Catha
19:22 / 10.01.03
Bill Posters: I believe it was Joe, the "Master Adept" currently trawling this forum in search of suckers/new students, who made the comment Gypsy Lantern started this thread with. While I would usually agree with you that everyone is entitled to follow their own path, the fact that this particular poster is attempting to dictate to others what sort of Magick is appropriate (and what isn't), well...that's a bit naff. Luckily no-one seems to be biting at hir bait.

Back to the topic at hand! Gypsy Lantern says:

I think the essence of this debate centres around the difficulty in verifying the objective validity of large scale workings to effect change at a global level...I find the "big scale change global consciousness in a series of workings" approach unsatisfying and tend to shy away from it. It's very difficult to accurately assess whether or not your actions are having any real noticable effect on world affairs or global consciousness, and it's very easy to look at an incredibly complex global situation and find abundant evidence proving that you have saved the world, just as it is very easy for someone else to find similar strong evidence that proves you've done nothing but wander around a room making some strange noises.

And I wonder if that essentialy boils back down to ego. It's awfully impressive and glamourous to hear a Magickian going on about Major Magickal Workings that will Affect Global Consciousness; it makes the person seem very Powerful, Serious and Committed To Hir Craft (so of course we must all defer to hir, do whatever s/he suggests and never ever question hir because s/he is Powerful, Serious and Committed to Hir Craft.). But there's no way of being able to tell if these Major Magickal Workings do anything except make the Magickian going on about them look good in the eyes of neophytes. So yeah, I find them very suspect as well.

Lots of small works done individually can be stronger than one big one, and in the end can do more to cause constructive change.
 
 
mixmage
19:33 / 10.01.03
Is this a poll?
Filthy Witch.
 
 
penitentvandal
20:18 / 10.01.03
I second that!

I actually came to magick via wicca, but it always seemed a bit hippyish for my Nine Inch Nails sensibilities, so I got into chaos magic instead, coz it seemed shiny and sexy and vaguely filthy, in a cool sort of way. But these days, like the guy who observed that shamanism and ceremonial magick both get you to the same place, I can appreciate that if you put the work in, just about any path can be used to achieve powerful 'magic' effects. I've even relaxed my negative opinion about all the teenwicca stuff, seeing it now as part of this 'pastoral magic' current I imagine/foresee (delete as applicable) is approaching.

As to the global stuff - I tend to concentrate on my locale too, but I do help out with the global workings because, you know, I may as well...But I will admit that, in the end, it's not the 'for the good of the planet' superhero-ey stuff that really satisfies, it's the stuff you do that genuinely helps your mates.

But then, I am a bit of a soft bastard, really...
 
 
Stone Mirror
06:43 / 12.01.03
Let us stop with the pussyfooting around and the simple base witchcraft and shamanism and start doing things hardcore, some start with Chaos magic but this too is overly simple. We need to get focused on the high level occult magicks and ippssissimal works.

I'd have to say that the ignorance that this quote displays is, frankly, stunning. All of the trappings of ceremonial magick amount, when all is said and done, to stage props which assist us in getting past our conditioned minds to that state which shamans achieve without (for the most part) massive paraphernalia.

These paths are not mutually exclusive, nor are they opposed to one another, but rather quite complementary. To take a position claiming that one must abjure the one in order to take up the other shows, in my opinion, a lack of meaningful experience with either.

And I'm hesitant (to say the very least) to take guidance on "ippssissimal works" from people who are apparently unaware of the proper spelling of "ipsissimus".
 
 
LVX23
05:18 / 14.01.03
My approach is a kind of magickal "think globally, act locally" strategy, for example if I wanted to influence something in the sphere of global affairs I would target a specific individual intimately connected with the decision making process, rather than try to tackle the entire concept of 'de-forestation' through ritual practice. With this approach your results are self evident, you know whether or not the sorcery has worked or if it needs some fine tuning. It's the butterfly effect, one magickal bullet at the right place and right time can change the world.

I heartily agree. Influencing large mobs of individuals seems much more difficult than influencing a single, carefuly chosen person. This is like a surgical strike: pick out the appropriate target and focus your efforts there. And the "butterfly effect" is an appropriate analogy: Chaos is inherently a nonlinear dynamical system, just like the weather. Pick the right point of insertion and your simple spell can iterate into a major working. I guess the trick is picking the appropriate person and finding the right point of insertion.

I wonder if magickal acts directed towards high-ranking officials would constitute terrorism? Probably...
 
 
Stone Mirror
05:47 / 14.01.03
I wonder if magickal acts directed towards high-ranking officials would constitute terrorism?

According to Dion Fortune, British occultists did precisely this during World War II...
 
 
Joe
04:52 / 15.01.03
First I will apologise to Stone Mirror, I did not realise that one had to be a perfect typist to be able to do magick, I am not perfect and do sometimes make typing errors. I wish now I hadn't wasted all those years learning magick when I should have learnt to type.
Why do so many of you have such a problem with me. I am not taking the piss out of anyones beliefs, or saying I am better than anyone. I also posted that I want to haelp and don't listen to me if you don't want too.
Witchcraft and Shamanism are very good in there own right and I agree they are a good grounding. Did I not say that I started out with these practices?
My point is that the world is in a state so why don't we get into more focused global magick? I do not merely pose around in robes with tools, I used these to get me to a point where I could work constantly on thew astral to affect larger changes while carrying on a normal life on this plane. I use no paraphenalia. I do not ask for respect. I do not believe I am being arrogant as I also work on the small scale to help friends, family and others. I have sacrificed everything good in my life so I could reach my potential to help others in the greatest possible way. Ceremonial magick is far beyond what you are saying Stone Mirror everyone has some ceemony of different levels wether they admit it or not. I know of the different levels people are at here and the different reasons they do magick, I am just trying to pass on the knowledge I have spent a lifetime trying to attain, isn't that what this place is all about. Stone Mirror quell your jealousy for a moment and you might be able to learn something.
PS whats the problem with witches anyway, filthy indeed many of my good friends are witches, as are many people on this site.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:44 / 15.01.03
First of all, thanks for returning and elaborating on some of your points in the other thread. Will reply to that in due course.

>Why do so many of you have such a problem with me. I am not taking the piss out of anyone's beliefs, or saying I am better than anyone.

As I started this thread, I'd like to apologise for the fact that it has accrued an element of 'Joe bashing' as it's progressed. This wasn't my intention in starting the thread, which is why I didn't attribute the quote to you in my post, so hopefully people wouldn't come at it with pre-conceived ideas. My intention was to take your quote as a kicking off point for debate on the subject of ceremonial magick as opposed to shamanic practice. Not an argument over which is the 'best' path, but a comparative discussion. Barbelith is a discussion board, therefore I consider any opinion posted on barbelith as fair game for discussion, and your quote does throw up certain interesting points for debate. I don't consider this thread to be about you, but about the various issues surrounding the matter of why a person feels compelled to pursue a shamanic path over a ceremonial path, and vice versa (as in the topic abstract).

My confrontational stance on certain issues should not be perceived as taking the piss or having a go at you. Every post I've made addressing your comments has been intended purely in the spirit of debate. This is a forum for debate on the subject of magick. I'm expecting my opinions to be challenged and to discover new perspectives on things. That's why I post on barbelith.
>Witchcraft and Shamanism are very good in there own right and I agree they are a good grounding. >Did I not say that I started out with these practices?

You see, this is where I have to disagree with you. The tone of your post seems to imply that shamanism is 'a good grounding' and something to start out with before moving on to other things. (I'm willing to accept that this could be a misunderstanding on my part, and you may not mean to imply this at all - but that is how it reads.) This perspective on shamanism seems to consider it as some kind of entry level beginners material which you use before going onto other more advanced stuff. I couldn't disagree more with this perspective, and I base my opinions on experience with both approaches. I'm not dissing the ceremonial road, but I think of it as a relatively recent accumulation of method and technique for formalised interaction with exactly the same forces/energies/spirits which the shaman speaks with on a daily basis.

My definition of shamanism is learning magick directly from the spirits, and communication with the divine through direct inspiration as opposed to formalised ritual. It's a life in itself, something that is infinitely complex and constantly changing and developing. Of course, it's entirely possible that we have different definitions of the word 'shamanism' and our difference of opinion is purely semantic.

>My point is that the world is in a state so why don't we get into more focused global magick?

I've posted my thoughts on why I personally find workings of 'global magick' intangible and unsatisfying, and my preferred methods of addressing global issues. I'd be interested to know why you personally find the former method more satisfying and productive. I'm not trying to argue or defend my position on this, but I'm interested in trying to see things from an alternate perspective.

>PS what's the problem with witches anyway, filthy indeed many of my good friends are witches, as >are many people on this site.

I think you've missed the intended vaguely humorous tone of the thread title. I don't think anybody here has expressed any kind of disdain for witches, and the term 'filthy witch' is used for humorous contrast to the term 'high ceremonial magus'. It's not meant to be a reference to 'Wicca' or the dubious practice of 'Wicca-bashing', just something that popped into my head when I was looking for a catch all phrase encompassing witchcraft/sorcery/shamanism.
 
 
cusm
15:09 / 15.01.03
Another way I look at this, as has been gone into somewhat above, is the right/left brain hemisphere issue. "Right brain" thinking is the abstract, artistic, and non-linear approach to cognition. "Left brain" thinking is logical, specific, and linear. To that end, the shamanic approach is of the right hemisphere as the ceremonial approach is to the left. Which is better? Well, is one half you your brain any better or "lower" than the other half? I think each are good for specific purposes. Its adaptability vs progress, I suspect is the issue of how one might see the logical approach as inherently superior or more advanced. In a way it is, but in other ways, the abstract can do things the logical can not. So, I think its best to not weigh one over the other as any better, so much as different.
 
 
Stone Mirror
15:50 / 15.01.03
First I will apologise to Stone Mirror, I did not realise that one had to be a perfect typist to be able to do magick...

The ability to use one's native language correctly is a sign of a) intelligence and b) care. Sloppiness is a bad sign in a magician.

Why do so many of you have such a problem with me.

Um, because you fell out of a clear blue sky and demonstrated both pomposity and cluelessness in short order? Just a guess, mind you. (See that thing at the end of this sentence? It's called a "question mark".)

Ceremonial magick is far beyond what you are saying Stone Mirror...

Oh? So what is it? And how would you know?

Stone Mirror quell your jealousy for a moment and you might be able to learn something.

Such as? How to spot a bogus "ippssissimus"? I can do that already. If you believe this is about "jealousy", you need to brush up on your haruspication. All you've done so far is serve up a load of tripe.

Try reading some Crowley, rather than just quoting titles. And quit trying to perform VIII° on us...
 
 
Bill Posters
16:52 / 15.01.03
 
 
Joe
05:03 / 16.01.03
Gypsy Lantern, firstly I did not mean to have a go at you, or this thread but the Joe bashing has become tiresome.
Yes you are right about the shaman thread I was looking at it from a different view point. I believe in trying to unite and focus magicks to there highest points.
Plus your point on global magick is as valid as anyone elses and as such I respect that.
Come and meet me on the astral Stone Mirror you claim to know how to get there and I have told you how to get to the crossroads in another thread.
 
 
MrCoffeeBean
07:01 / 16.01.03
unite and focus?!?! by saying youre better than everybody else and youre magick is the "right one"... yeah sure... so you have only said how good you are and what books you read and when peopl eask you stuff ypu get pissed of. Youre doing a great job Joe...
 
 
Bill Posters
07:33 / 16.01.03
Careful Mr CB - remember, he's "hardcore" and we're just "pussyfooters". He'll give us a kick up the astral if we dis him!

* kneels down before The Great Joe and gazes adoringly upwards *
 
  
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