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Promethea 24

19:13 / 08.01.03

So, am I the only one who bought this issue, or are we ignoring it for some reason?

Thoughts, please.

Oh yeah, and I told you they were gonna have a fight...

19:39 / 08.01.03

it has a really nice cover. but since I'm a few issues behind in my reading, I haven't opened it yet.

19:46 / 08.01.03

And thought they might have a something else entirely... but there's a whole series left for THAT.

I got it, loved it, and started thinking about WHERE those two earlier Prometheas ended up, if not by Anna's pool? And are there several more that vanished in the Immateria? Perhaps Prometheas have lifespans?

I think the portrayal of religons as the egos of true spirituality was splendidly done, and the Binah-style fall of the tower was a great slide-in too.

I'm a bit dismayed that Sophie is indignant in her statements that The Goddess appointed Her the Promethea of Right Now. Maybe that was her own humility crumbling. I'm beginning to really dislike Grace too. She was my favorite, ...she eats demons man!

Aesthetically, I don't like how Sophie's Caduceus glows white now after the climb, and has that ugly triangle on her forehead. I'm all about spiritual significance, but it's angles look funny on her face. Does this bother anyone else?

21:29 / 08.01.03

I liked it. Beautiful cover, as usual. It felt very quick, though. It's normaly a denser read. Perhaps it's because there was no Magick lecture. I wondered why the two new (old) Promethea's weren't in the Immeteria, as well. Perhaps they could go there is they chose to? (ie. leave their repective "afterlives" and go to The immeteria.)

23:00 / 08.01.03

Well, the Imateria isn't the end all be all of the after life. I mean, Barbara chose to move on. These other two Promethea's seem very adamant in their faiths so it makes sense that instead of chilling with the pagan Promethea's by the pool they went on to their sperate heavens.

I like the white caduceus and the third eye, I thought that was a nice touch, but I'm a dork sooo...

On my first read I didn't like that Sophia fought Stace I I wanted her enlightenment to count for something, but on my second read I noticed that she didn't want to fight at all and that the whole time she was trying to reason with Stace/Grace. I really can't blame her being so pissed though. I mean, they make you a god/superhero for a week and then they want to take it away? Sheee-it, not without a fucken fight, yo!

23:02 / 08.01.03

I'm very fond of Sophie's new design - while obviously more 'earthy', it seems more refined to me as well, more 'in tune', whatever that my mean to anyone else but me.

And I'm going to second the idea that I'm almost disappointed with myself for wanting Grace to get the shit kicked out of her. After Lord knows how many densely-packed issues of Qaballistic education, this one wizzed right by, and I'm hungry for the next (A courtroom affair, apparently).

I'm pondering at the thematic/magickal reasoning/overtones of having a clash such as this after such a thorough period of enlightenment - Drama, certainly, but beyond that. The clash of religious idealogies seemed a very strong idea (reminded me of his 9-11 story 'This Is Information', oddly enough), and the modern brawl seemed to come from something a good deal more superficial between the two Prometheas - both appeared to be acting out of character, although I'm sure there's a good reason for it.

02:49 / 09.01.03

I thought comparing the war of religion to a petty school girl fight was very funny.

12:43 / 09.01.03

I liked it a lot, as always seems to be the case with this title – it felt a bit like a transitional issue, or a prologue to things to come, but that seems only right in pacing terms given the events of the last few issues.

And even the apparent cliché of the two heroes fighting due to a misunderstanding was cut short, which I thought was a fun touch.

The script was, as ever, of a high calibre, and I continue to be amazed by the page layouts and clarity of storytelling; offhand I can’t think of another comic which is as constantly experimental in terms of layout, whilst simultaneously clear as to which panel you should be reading next. Jimmy Corrigan strikes me as another in this vein, though I must admit I sometimes found it a bit tricksy in terms of layout and the like, but that’s just me being curmudgeonly, I guess.

But as ever, a good issue, and nice to see Sophie return to earth with a bang. And a pow and a wallop, I guess.

DBC

13:14 / 09.01.03

indeed. good to know that moore actually listens to the people who moan about this book not having had a fight for about two years [not a surprise tho', moore's always had a big fondness for a bit of the old u-v]. i also think sophiemethea enjoyed the fight quite a lot - i've never found it easy to summon violent feelings toward strangers, but with very close friends it's a piece of piss. i got the feeling sophie was eager to stretch the new powers she got on holiday and assert her authority now she's back on malkuth. a problem with moore's work is that he nearly always leaves the 'there's a big baddy in the background heading to fuck everything up' subplot on the boil for too long, and i hope the doll is dealt with issue after next.

17:12 / 09.01.03

glassonion: [not a surprise tho', moore's always had a big fondness for a bit of the old u-v]

What's u-v? I'm new to Moore, but learning fast.

As for Big Baddie, I think the Doll has several more people to kill before Promethea is called on. Though he is in the periphery of her book, I think in the science-hero world, Doll is the 5 Swell Guy's responsibility. Which means it'll get even uglier before it gets full-circle. I'm thinking we'll have to see Grace and Stacia break up, Agent Brueghel or Ball die, the Smee get killed, the return of the Temple, and a hell of a lot more information spilled out about the Night Queen before Promethea even gets involved in the Painted Doll murders. I'm thinking this season of Proemthea will be about filling in the cracks that the prior Proemtheas don't know, and that the Kabballa didn't teach her.

17:32 / 09.01.03

And I'd thought I'd update everyone on just Who this Night Queen is.

Issue two holds that Billmethea knows that the Night Queen was responsible for his murder, while in seven, Bill tells Sophie that Dennis pulled the trigger on him. Dennis Drucker was the FBI agent who investigated and eventaully fell in love with the active Promethea, Bill. From this, I've inferred that while investigating those involved in Billmethea's antics, Dennis was informed BY the Night Queen as to the truth of Bill being Promethea. Bill died, Dennis went nuts, but yet seems lucid enough to know word-for-word quotations that describe the Immateria. I have a theory about this, but it would probably spoil the entirety of next year.

Issue two also states that the Night Queen is currently staying in the Underworld. One wonders why... except that the Painted Doll seems to know Promethea's enemies, know HOW to track them down, and how to destroy them. How is a mystery... but why would he even behave that way? Same theory.

My next question is this: What would happen to Promethea if she were channeled into a man who violently held onto a male self-image?

I hope Kenneth the psychic tracks Sophie down and meets her mother. That would be beautiful.

21:32 / 09.01.03

I hope Kenneth the psychic tracks Sophie down and meets her mother. That would be beautiful.

Yeah, that would be great. Also, I think Stacia and Grace should merge and hook up with Roger. But I have a feeling after next issue Grace and Stace are going to be separated.

I think the Painted Doll is more connected to Promethea then the Five Swell Guys. I think he's actually Dennis (at least, what's left of him after he killed Bill.) And I think he's moved on to targeting Promethea villains in some twisted attempt to impress her.

12:24 / 10.01.03

Regarding the apparent inappropriateness of the fight from Sophie's POV in the light of her recent trip to Heaven: I was wondering if Moore is making a point about the nature of enlightenment, in an "initiation never ends" kinda stylee. Yes, she wasn't as up for fighting as Graciamethea, but she did fight - my immediate feeling after reading the comic (and before reading this thread) was that the crashing down to earthly baseness was utterly fitting. Like (and I keep making this comparison about this book, and I know it can only stretch so far, but) when i've had a wonderful, blissful, apparently enlightening trip, and am sitting in a field coming down thinking "wow! That's it! I understand life in all its compexity and beauty and will be like some kinda Buddha dude from now on", and then the next day find myself bawling out a hapless bus driver because he doesn't have change for a tenner. Or whatever. The point being that wandering off to the higher realms and having a lovely time is all very well and valuable, but those lessons have to be put into action in the mundane world for them to be worth anything. Which Sophie isn't doing. Yet.

DBC - excellent comment about layouts

Chesed - u-v is ultra-violence, referred to in a Droogish manner. And thanks for the analysis of the Night Queen. You've obviously studied this book; I thought your recent thread on the Painted Doll was superb.

12:38 / 10.01.03

alan moore always has excellent fights in his comics. that is the grand unifying proof of his being the best comic writer of all [best does not = fave tho']. i think yr bang on about the doll being drucker, making the doll a definite prom baddie not a 5sg one. the doll methinks is, if you like, destructive chaos to balance promethea's creative chaos. maybe that's who the temple should be really worried about. after all this time I'M really worried where that pied piper/grey dude has got to. he gave me the shits and no mistake.

13:52 / 10.01.03

Okay, so yeah, my whole theory is that Drucker wanted Promethea back after he shot her host Bill. But in so doing, merged and became a host himself. He wasn't prepared for the transformation, and fought back... making an "insane Promethea is too dreadful to comprehend" -Grace, issue 4 (Not that Grace knows about Dennis, but that WE are set up to figure it out.)

Dennismethea, merged fantasy imagery with Dennis's violent lifestyle, becoming the Bond-like superagent Painted Doll. And while I agree the Doll IS Promethea's responsibility, I don't think Sophie or anyone quite realizes that yet. The 5 Swell Guys probably consider him their top priority.

I don't think there is a balance to the Promethea being creative and Doll being destructive as much as the Doll is Promethea's Qlippoth. Dennis is nuts because his reality crashed, and his imagination crashes and kills and destroys, like a stupid video game. I'm thinking there's going to be a serious book-blowing confrontation between Bill and Dennis later, probably in two years.

In all honesty, I'm thinking Promethea needs to find a male host who isn't nuts or "wanting to be a goddess". As we've seen with the recent fight in 24, all hosts ARE the little girl, and any fight that exists between them is a conflict for the source. Bill needs to have a serious sitdown with the Promethea Force(D'oh! Phoenix, what?) and resolve the fact that he IS a man, and that she can be one too. Once that Lovers card is laid down, and genders are liquified, they'll be able to fight the Painted Doll.

And once Grace and Stacia break up, I think Stacia may still put on Promethea on her own once in a while...

18:34 / 10.01.03

And a few other things:

I had never noticed how each different Promethea has a different sun/star sigil that accompanioes them thoughtout the design of book layout. This was only made apparent to me in 24 when Original Promethea cried and shattered the religious and modern Promethea's sigils. I hurried up and examined the books of the last two years and was impressed at the hidden symbology that was present even then. It's strange how Barbara's has either never been shown/or is the eyes-closed version of Sophie's sigil. I knew the two more close than the others, but the other girls are much more extravagant. Even Gracemethea's sigil is slightly different than Graciamethea's.

An perhaps it was the Painted Doll that "magically" transformed Roger into a woman?

And if Bill Woolcott drew Proemthea from 1940-1970, started drawing at age 20, then add 30 years -he should be dead at age fifty... yet his memories put him and Dennis at no older than early 30 something. Could Proemthea also retard the aging process?

20:51 / 10.01.03

Quote from MC Lentil = "The point being that wandering off to the higher realms and having a lovely time is all very well and valuable, but those lessons have to be put into action in the mundane world for them to be worth anything. Which Sophie isn't doing. Yet."

That makes a good deal of sense with the story - The application of enlightenment isn't so easy when you have to come back and be a real person. (I remember Grant Morrison had a wonderful comment about going into these fantastic other realms and and having extraordinary experiences, but you've still got to be able to come back and take a shite, hang out with your family, if you can't it's almost wasted)

One of the many great joys of the book for me is JH Williams III's impeccable design sense - in layouts, characters, promethea sigils, throwaway panel images, everything. I've seen some of his Batman work and was never impressed, but this has just been a beatiful ride from day one - So much imagination flowing into and out of this book.

12:05 / 11.01.03

oi chess-head this is all good stuff. does the doll have a star that follows it around too?

13:46 / 11.01.03

I haven't seen that Painted Doll has his own sigil, but he does have a consistent checkerboard motif. I think that if they had shown the Doll's sigil earlier, that would've let the cat out of the bag FAR too soon. I'll keep looking though. But I have noticed that the Painted Doll's face resembles Bill's sigil...

Roger's transformation could also explain the 5 Swell Guys' aversion to magical explanations. If magic were the case for his transformation, then it would be nearly impossible to change back, however, if Science might save them, there is hope. "Magic has nothing to do with this Kenneth!" -like they'd had a similar discussion prior.

I'm deconstructing this book far too quickly... I know all this is never gonna come out until maybe late this year.

16:06 / 11.01.03

That's alright, Chesed, your posts are entertaining enough.

Now I have to go back and look for Bill's sigil. You know the Five Swell Guys need to get their own book. They're such great characters and it sucks that they're reduced to the background. I'd like to see more Kennith and Roger at any rate.

19:00 / 11.01.03

I'd love to see a 5 Swell Guys Mini come out sometime. I'm not sure what they'd do, but I'd love to see them as active protagonists in a story that's suited more to their element (science/reality). Maybe a prequel, that's a crime drama or something...

On Kenneth: I read once somewhere in a review of the Promethea series that the reviewer found that it was strange to have a "psychic" on a "science-hero" team. He seemed to think psychic powers were more spiritual and magical in nature. In part, I disagree.
I'm an emigre from the X-books, where psychics were as scientific as the genes that made them. Telepathy could be brought down faily easily to electromagnetics and brain algorithms. To think of psychic powers in any other arena was silly. However, I realized that's only how scientists might see psychic powers. Religions might see them as demonic possession.
Kenneth is a science hero in that he and the rest of his team see his abilities as scientifically based. He already questions that, and is the connection of dialogue between his SCIENTIFIC team who disregards him often and MAGICKAL Sophiemethea, who calls him "not as inept as she had thought". Even in the story, his wife's infidelity was blind to him because he saw things how HE wanted to see them. He's growing away from his logic-traps of reasoning, and serves as another analogical vehicle for the reader. I REALLY like Kenneth, and I want him to be happy.

As much as we're having fun with Stacia and Sophie, I think this book will ultimately become about Kenneth and Bill over the next two years.