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Underground > Film, TV & Theatre >

Star Trek: Nemesis

  
 
Seth
23:44 / 03.01.03
From the Gathering thread...

My Misgendered Lord of the Flowers

Oooh, 'Nemesis' out at the end of the week!

expletives

Yeah, Nemesis - I'll be there this Friday. Mixed reports, I hear...

H.I.R.

Saw Nemesis last night. Mixed reports from this household - the missus thought it was fun, I thought it was disappointing. Possibly more thoughts if a Nemesis thread opens up in Film & TV. Can't make the 21st as it's the wife's Pon Farr that week.

explosives

Don't you mean Par'ma Kai?

Good god we're fucking geeks

H.I.R.

Quite possibly. But I find that when Mrs H.I.R puts aside 7 years of icy logic and stoicism and surrenders herself to a tsunami of complete frenzied abandon, that's not the best time for linguistic quibbles.

Hope you enjoy Nemesis tonight. Actually my wife is the bigger geek in this household, and she enjoyed it. My own simplistic and non-spoiler view is that when something is titled Nemesis you expect a villain of the highest order, and I don't think we were given one.

Persephone

Ayeeee... if you start that thread, my geeky disappointed self will weigh in...


There have been a lot of mixed reports about this movie. Apparently there's been nearly an hour of footage cut from the theatrical release. People who have seen the script say it the movie is poorer as a result.

I'd like to think that the Next Gen crew have at least one good movie in them. One in four was arguably the success ratio of Next Gen episodes, after all. It just really seems as though Berman and Piller don't know what constitutes a good movie,and it's left us with films that are as clunky-dialogue heavy as the episodes. Where that's obviously a series budget-saving measure, and helped create some classic TV, it just doesn't work on the big screen unless handled very fucking well.

I'm going to see it tomorrow night. Judgement reserved until the credits roll at the end, and I won't check this thread until after the event.

I'm just pissed that there'll never be DS9 movies. That fucker needs at least a nine hour mini-series for all the loose ends, and I'll be fucking dead before I have enough time to waste on the books that are supposed to constitute an "eighth season." Fuck Paramount, and fuck the World.
 
 
videodrome
02:58 / 04.01.03
I didn't like the film. While there's a few good things in it, ultimately it doesn't move things forward in any way other than the superficial. Yes, a marriage, a death, a change of rank, but it's all deck-shuffling, not an evolution.

That, and it's essentially a remake of the second film.

But the show was the same, offering very little in terms of far-reaching characters over a many-season run. I always hoped they'd move towards a soap-opera structure, rather than the episodic stuttering that so many seem to be content grazing upon.

But there may still be DS9 films. When I did the Nemesis junket, Berman talked about the possibility of those characters showing up in future films.
 
 
Seth
10:48 / 04.01.03
In all likelihood it would only be the Star Fleet specific characters. There's too much continuity baggage attached to the supporting cast, Bajorans and Cardassians. We may get O'Brien, Worf (Next Gen characters anyway), Bashir, Dax or Nog... possibly Martok. That's about it.

I thought of a wicked pitch that involved Next Gen and DS9 crews combining to save Thomas Riker (Will Riker's transporter duplicate) from a Cardassian/Dominion POW camp, which for some reason (you know how they make this shit up) has carried on operating after the war (maybe with a final Weyoun clone at the helm, seeing as how he's too shifty not to have a few copies of himself waiting in the wings). Problem is it's too close to the plot of the current movie.
 
 
Tamayyurt
15:11 / 04.01.03
I don't want them to make a DS9 movie. Honestly, how can they not fuck it up? Besides, the great thing about DS9 was the story archs. The one shot episodes were rather flat. Unless they get a great writer and director and make it a trilogy. (which would add roughly to 7 episodes) it won't work. And they need to stop trying to turn Star Trek films into action movies and just let them be what they are.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:50 / 04.01.03
Out of curiosity, which major character dies?
 
 
videodrome
21:22 / 04.01.03
*** Spoilers ***










This one.

He dies in a way that's a near copy of the fate of Spock, all those years ago. But a near duplicate character is introduced, and one scene features a memory transfer that may ultimately mean that he's no more dead than that pesky Vulcan. We'll see.








*** end spoilers ***
 
 
gentleman loser
21:37 / 04.01.03
I'd like to think that the Next Gen crew have at least one good movie in them.

They did. It was Star Trek: First Contact.

Nemesis was pretty well doomed from the start since it opened about the same time as "The Two Towers, even if it was actually good, which seems unlikely. The Nemesis trailers weren't impressive enough to get my ass into a theater seat (a Picard clone and another Data clone, ooh I'm impressed, not to mention the fact that it's supposedly the absolutely last Next Gen movie ever. Seriously! We swear! Scout's honor!).

The main problem is of course that Star Trek after 35 years is utterly out of ideas. I'm a huge Star Trek fanboy, but I think it's long overdue to kill off the franchise. Next Generation was about half good at best. DS 9 and Voyager never held my interest. I'll skip Enterprise, which pretty much tosses out any continuity to the series anyway.

Someone desperately needs to turn the whole space exploration genre onto its head, but I'm not going to hold my breath.
 
 
Seth
11:53 / 05.01.03
You see, I skipped First Contact because it chucked all continuity out of the window. A hive race which absorbs civilizations and technology going back in time to absorb Earth at a point in history where there was next to no civilization or technology. They do this out of fear, presumably, that their previous one cube strikes had no effect, perhaps not realising that they can send fifty to really fuck us up. Oh, and Picard not choosing to tell the Federation fleet the cube's weakness before turning up to save the day was just ridiculous. Fucking piece of shit, makes itself irredeemable in the first ten minutes.

Nemesis is nonsense for many of the same reasons. Shinzon's lure is extending the olive branch of peace? Isn't that a bit of an empty gesture considering that the Federation and Romulans are already allies (in fact, they were for a season and a half of DS9)? I can understand that they'd go straight back to resuming old emnity after the Dominion war, but surely the Federation would have sent out a touchy feely diplomatic team to prevent that, which should have at least been mentioned.

The lack of intelligence available on Shinzon also tramples established continuity. Koval, the chairman of the Tal'Shiar, is a Section 31 mole. The Tal'Shiar are not even mentioned, let alone their chairman, which conveniently paves the way for a massive biogenic weapon being built right next door to the Romulan homeworld, by their slave race no less. Puh-lease.

Those are the quibbles that really get in the way of the story. Minor stuff includes Worf having nothing better to do than fire photons on the bridge (the fact that he's the Federation Ambassador to the Klingon Empire isn't mentioned); the repeated in-joke about illegal Romulan Ale (which is apparently the Star Fleet equivalent of the management sharing round a sly joint at every available opportunity); and Picard's dialogue about "sharing the same heart" as Shinzon. Which he doesn't, as his is artificial. I'm sure I could think of more on a rewatch... which ain't gonna happen.

Combine all this shoddy nonsense (Berman, Piller, Logan and Spiner obviously haven't watched any of the series for years) with shockingly bad acting and characterisation; Riker being reduced to fighting and fucking (admittedly not a whole lot more than he did in the series); one of the worst, most intrusive movie scores I've ever heard; and a script that stinks to high heaven.

It's bizarre when the most honest part of a Star Trek movie is the action.
 
 
Seth
12:02 / 05.01.03
One more thing. Janeway as admiral is acceptable because it's widely recognised that Star Fleet admirals are incompetent, hypocritical, corrupt, insane, ambitious, unlikeable, or work to their own agenda. That's fine (she fits many of those categories), I just don't want to have to see her being an admiral. Just one minute of her STUPID FACE made me start cursing everything that is Holy.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:44 / 05.01.03
Whoa, wait - Captain Janeway from Voyager is in this mess too? Is she in it before or after the whole "lost in space" thing?

I've always thought that "let's move them all up in rank without substantially changing their jobs" thing is Star Trek movies was really lame and superficial, with the exception of Chekov, who at least got his own damn ship instead of still sitting behind the steering wheel of the Enterprise.
 
 
Persephone
17:40 / 05.01.03
*geek alert*

Sulu, you mean? Did Chekhov ever get his own ship?

Riker being reduced to fighting and fucking

I realize this isn't the most high-level comment, but I have to say that Riker and Troi were close to the top of the list of people I did NOT want to see in a blue-note sex scene.

Also... I gave up my TV around the last season of Next Gen, but I thought that it ended with Deanna and Worf being together. What happened?

And exp, how can you not like First Contact? Farmer Hoggett invents warp drive!
 
 
Seth
17:43 / 05.01.03
Did Chekov get his own command too? I thought it was just Sulu.

Riker gets his own ship in the movie, called the Titan. There are strong rumours that the continuation of the Star Trek movie franchise will feature a hybrid cast from Next Gen, DS9 and Voyager, based on this ship.

As far as I'm concerned, Janeway got the job she deserved.

Adding a spoiler warning.
 
 
Seth
18:04 / 05.01.03
I hate First Contact because the premise of the movie makes no sense. It's an embarrassing piece of shit. Imagine a movie in which Dubya goes millions of years back in time to build an oil pipeline across Afganistan, because he doesn't think he'll win in the present. And then realises that there won't be any oil there because it hasn't formed yet.

OK: I don't know how far back in time he'd have to go, but you get the idea.

Worf and Deanna must have split up when the former was stationed on DS9. He then married Dax, which lasted about a year before she was killed by a possessed Gul Dukat. Riker and Troi got together in Insurrection. If I were Worf I would have boycotted the wedding on principle, as none of the Enterprise crew bothered coming to his.

You're right: It's a bit too much like watching your parents shagging, isn't it?
 
 
Persephone
18:53 / 05.01.03
Riker and Troi got together in Insurrection.

They did? Totally missed that point. Oh well, I'll have to be dragged out to the store to rent the DVD...

Plus, doesn't it seem a little wrong that Worf has to go naked to the wedding on Betazed? He doesn't want to! I mean, seriously... it was just played for cheap humor; but if you think about it, I think that's harassment. Am I not being open-minded enough?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:05 / 05.01.03
As made obvious by my Chekov/Sulu mix up, I'm not the biggest Star Trek fan - but I'm really curious about Janeway now - what job did she get? Why did she deserve it? I'm curious, and also unwilling to go pay to see this movie. You can PM if you have to! Just tell me!

Didn't Troi and Riker have a relationship going way back? I remember that from watching TNG with my mom as a kid.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
20:22 / 05.01.03
I enjoyed this, of course it made absolutely no sense and well Picard would have shot him, I couldn't look at Troi-Riker scene and just covered my eyes but the bit where they rammed the other ship... Well that was good. Star Trek Admirals are always complete tossers so Janeway fits perfectly there, I missed Wesley Crusher especially after the beginning scenes and the worst line was probably 'it's Data' uttered by Troi towards the end.

Definitely in the spirit of the worse episodes of Next Gen but this film finished without the spirit of the Captain that always pulled it through in the series.
 
 
William Sack
20:39 / 05.01.03
A fundamentally flawed premise isn't enough to ruin a Star Trek film for me. I'm with Persephone on First Contact, Expressionless. Farmer Hoggett invents warp drive, and the Borg Queen blows Data.

It's no big spoiler, Flux, Janeway has a minute long cameo giving Picard his orders by sub-space relay - we see that she is an Admiral. The rank means very little - she may yet be busted down to Captain to go on some galaxy-saving jaunt if a future plot demands it.

Nemesis. I'm hard-pushed to think what my objections to this film are: I certainly don't take to it as violently as Expressionless. Perhaps that illustrates my objections - a couple of days after seeing it, and I realise that it has made absolutely no impact on me whatsoever. My first reaction was mild disappointment, and now I can't even remember how it was that I thought it had let me down. Yes, the space-ship ramming was quite good, but when the other ship reversed I was thinking, "Hang on, wouldn't that pull the Enterprise with it?" I'm only ever that scientifically nitpicking with Star Trek when I'm bored.
 
 
Seth
05:23 / 06.01.03
Re exp angst: I think it's probably that, unlike a lot of people, I still think this franchise has some life left in it. Enterprise has a first season which is fairly hit and miss, but has some excellent characters and nice, subtle story arcs (I guess you'd have to know more about Trek history prior to TOS to know whether it messes with stuff as much as some people say). DS9 went much further than any previous Trek in establishing a huge continuity, and fleshing out the entire Trek universe, while maintaining excellent characterisation throughout.

This is clearly the way forward for the whole franchise. Let's face it: TOS is mostly only watchable for the characters these days, and it's the movies that have had a retrograde effect on Kirk and co, making their adventures seem much more epic, more purposeful... the introduction of continuity. They need to play on this as much as possible to maintain the creativity of the writers and the interest of the audience.

Voyager and the Next Gen movies are therefore just a complete misunderstanding of what has become good about Star Trek, shoddily written and acted with no thought as to what has come before. They're preposterously uninvolving. They're smug hammy tripe. It pisses me off to see yet another opportunity wasted.

But then, I'm still a believer, for my sins. Most of you have given up already, so I can understand why you're not too bothered.
 
 
penitentvandal
19:33 / 08.01.03
Presumably, rather than boycotting the wedding, Worf took his revenge by getting sloshed on the aforementioned Romulan Ale at the stag do and making an embarassment of himself.

Worf: Oi, Willy-boy! *hic* I've shagged your wife, you bastard! Up the arse! Up-the-arse! Whaddaya reckon to that, then, you chunky, bearded wanker? Eh? Eh?

At which point obviously Picard or Data would be required to quietly render Worf unconscious. The reason he does nothing hard in the film is that he's actually too embarassed to do anything to draw attention to himself.
 
 
_pin
19:27 / 10.01.03
*************SPOILERS*************

It... doesn't... make... sense. How the fuck do the Remans build that ship?? How do they find, dismantle and plant B4 (they always seem to pronounce it like that) just in time to catch the Enterprise and no one else?? How does no one ever go "Wait a minute! You're our flagship? And you have an android on board?? And there's an android signal right there??? And you have your original crew all reassembled except for the dead one???? And there's absolutly no way on earth you can ever resist a mission????? And now the Romulans want to make peace?????? And you're right there??????? Fuck me! That is a lot of coincidences... well fancy that... "?? How has no one glassed Janeway??

And what was up with that Vicroy's connection with Deanna. Or almost complete lack of a connection with Deanna, if you will. This, like the connection between Picard and Shinzon, seems to be just given to us on a plate and we have to accept these things as a given. While the Picard/Shinzon thing seems to be fair (Look! It's a clone! Everyone doubts themselves when faced with an evil clone!)... do we have any evidence that, in the same possition, he'd act the same way. Maybe if he had his entire personality taken out and replaced with a whole new one. Like, say... a Borg one. Their entire relationship just didn't ring true to me. Maybe I just expect to much...

Back to the Deanna point: except for one scene, it just didn't really seem to seem like they were that close, but she still used him to trace the ship... Maybe there's lots of mental sparring between the two in the bits that were cut out...

So was all this extra stuff filmed and then cut, exp? Chance of it surfacing at all?

And fucking back-up Data who remembers the song at the end as his neural pathways begin to evolve... gah! Hurt maim kill! Anything to stop them!
 
 
Fist Fun
10:26 / 11.01.03
Saw this yesterday. The reasoning behind picking up B4 didn't seem very clear and the scenes on the planet seems to be a forced James Bondesque set piece. Did they just think it would be cool to see the crew messing about in dune buggys? Maybe they wanted to make a good level for a computer game - travel round the planet colecting pieces of data and avoid the baddies.

Overall, enjoyable but not very good. The evil clone was clearly Dr Evil.
 
 
videodrome
12:13 / 11.01.03
Back to the Deanna point: except for one scene, it just didn't really seem to seem like they were that close, but she still used him to trace the ship... Maybe there's lots of mental sparring between the two in the bits that were cut out...

A full-on mental rape was cut out. The scene where Shinzon shows up while she and Number One are in bed was much longer, and featured a full psychic rape, of sorts. They decided that had to go, and there were a couple of other mental bits between the two, including a scene in a lift that was in the trailer, but not the film.

But hey, more shots of stuff blowing up, right?
 
 
Persephone
12:55 / 11.01.03
That scene was long enough.

But what you say does bring to mind something annoying, which is --I'm probably going to be overstating here, so adjust sensors accordingly-- why is it, then, that the most useful thing that Deanna Troi does in her history as a character is to get raped? Sorry to resurrect this slightly dumb Women in Refrigerators argument, but.... Was this the first time that we've heard that Troi is, actually, telepathic? Correct me if I'm wrong, please. I thought that her mom was full-on telepathic & all Troi got was her joke talent for empathy. So it seems like they upgraded her abilities for this movie --and so there's that part where Shinzon talks about her abilities to make sure that everyone knows that we're dealing with a telepath now-- for what looks like the sole purpose of getting her raped.

The other thing that I've been stewing about is the Romulan lady played, I think, by Dina Meyer? Basically this is what happens: she makes a move on Shinzon. Shinzon rejects her, humiliatingly. She flies in to save the day for the Enterprise. They don't give her any more motivation than that! She's evidently smart and strong, she knows about this horrible weapon, she probably knows that Shinzon's going to use this horrible weapon on Earth... but it all boils down to, she fucks him over because he won't fuck her.

Grrrr... that's the thing, exp. You're right, I don't believe in Star Trek... but I love it anyway. I think you're totally right about what the movies did for TOS, and the ones that work best are the ones that work for a continuity of sorts. And that's probably why I like First Contact --despite the big suspension of disbelief that you have to do right at the beginnng-- because it reaches out to the Star Trek mythos in that same way. And also the Borg Queen blows Data. But the problem with a movie like Nemesis is that it's not consistent or believable within itself --unless you believe that sex is the source of woman's power and the source of danger.

Me go smash things now.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
18:58 / 14.01.03
Take the whole lot out and shoot them, apart from Ron Perlman and Tom Hardy (sexy boy but too flaccid for the part). Guynan was fun for her ten second cameo. Ships colliding was fun. If I hadn't skived off work early to go see, I'd have been angry at the waste of my time. The trailer for Lord of the Rings was a masterpiece by comparison.

The dune buggy chase was pathetic. The Romulans were great in DS9 but were one dimensional eyebrow fetishists in this. Ryker as man of action, come on! Ryker as thrusting bridegroom, don't be silly. Great disappointment all round (apart from pretty boy Shinzon).

I fell asleep for a while in the middle and looked at my watch several times.
 
 
Seth
22:59 / 14.01.03
You like "whys," not "eyes."
 
 
Ganesh
01:25 / 15.01.03
And increasingly, dear, you do seem to be falling asleep in cinemas...
 
 
FinderWolf
19:11 / 08.09.04
Huh, I finally just saw this...sort of eehhh. Good on the surface, but as many have pointed out, all the plot holes and problems show up when you think about it for more than 10 seconds.

I did think Tom Hardy did a nice acting job. And I liked the awkward quiet scene at the end where everyone takes in the fact that Data has just bit it.
 
 
Lord Morgue
08:15 / 09.09.04
The ramming. Yes, it's all about the ramming. And the bit where the redshirt gets sucked out the viewscreen, makes you wonder why seatbelts never seem to have caught on in Trek.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:46 / 09.09.04
The ramming was fun, though I also felt (as did a poster above) 'why doesn't the evil ship take the Enterprise with it when it reverses course after they've been smooshed together'?

And they didn't mention exacuating all those people in the front section that got smooshed.

There's a deleted ending in the DVD that shows Capt. Picard taking command with a new first officer (to replace Riker), and he gets a new Captain's chair that has...seat belts. Picard smiles, says "It's about time!" and we pull away to rousing Star Trek "This is the end of the movie" music.
 
  
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