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What's so bad about being a hack?

 
  

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Our Lady of The Two Towers
20:49 / 01.01.03
Unfortunately I haven't formed some elaborate argument or theory for this one folks, it consists more or less of the title. Reading and disagreeing with a fair bit Stephen King's On Writing (and it might be a good idea if our departed Australian poster doesn't read it as he disses Jackie Susann several times) but he makes the usual noises about critics patrolling the boundaries, deciding what is 'literature' and what is 'mere hackwork'. Now King gives Chandler as an example of a 'hack done good' and I can think of the 'New Virginia Andrews' books as modern hackwork, but I know it takes as much effort to turn out a bad bit of work as good, so really, what is a hack and is it really that bad?

Like I said, it's in the title!
 
 
The Photographer in Blowup
21:21 / 01.01.03
Would like to know what qualifies King as an expert on how to write, but i guess he's famous enough to have his own book about his craft, and that means he'll sell, because all his fans want to be as horrible writers as he is and will buy his book.

Anyway, what you're asking is, what makes a book 'literature' and another just 'hackwork'?

Popular books hardly ever are considered literature, perhaps because the critics must think if a great number of people understand the book, then it mustn't be very intelligent - the pretentious bastards.

Being European also helps - how many Europeans do you know that write horror/fantasy/scifi books? Not many, and they think they're so good just because they use ten pages to describe a door closing or a raindrop falling - think they're very intelectual because of their rambling.

And staying in print for a good deal of decades is also helpful.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
22:31 / 01.01.03
Popular books hardly ever are considered literature, perhaps because the critics must think if a great number of people understand the book, then it mustn't be very intelligent - the pretentious bastards.

Um, careful. That's a fairly big assumption to make about all criticism. And depending on where you're looking for popularity, you will find literature: surely the stuff that gets onto the Booker lists, say, counts as literature - and, like it or not, it is popular.

Or are we really getting into a discussion about the critical/reading habits that vary between nations?

For what it's worth, I think "hack" is a term that's used by scared writers a lot of the time. There's writers who are good, or aren't good, but really, if you're self-assured, surely it shouldn't bother you? In theory, anyway. I'm reminded of the Alma Hromic comments (link later, when I can dig it out) on NaNoWriMo; she berated people going into the contest because she believed they were taking away from the "real" writers; like there's a finite amount of call for them, and someone who writes an extended "what I did on my holiday" epic would somehow cause a hidden Dostoyevsky to be cut down before they could bloom, etc, etc.

In other words: needless bitching. But show me an artistic area that's without it.

Lord: I think you've nailed it in the abstract. Someone who's not up to your personal scratch will be a hack. Newsprint is probably the best place to see this in action, I guess.
 
 
Cavatina
07:16 / 02.01.03
My Misgendered Lord ...,I think that there are 'hack writers' in the sense that I understand the term - writers with commercial rather than literary standards, who don't care if their writing is facile, stale or trite, as long as it sells. As Rothkoid says, probably the best place to find examples is in newsprint, but I wouldn't want to tar journalism uniformly with the 'hack' brush; the quality of journalistic writing varies enormously. Bodice-ripper pulp fiction such as Mills and Boon is probably another source, though I can't say I've looked at any of this in recent times.

For what it's worth, Nabokov uses the term to refer to novelists and reviewers he considers subliterary/doesn't like in Lolita:

I presume there exist readers who find titillating the display of mural words in those hopelessly banal and enormous novels which are typed out by the thumbs of tense mediocrities and called "powerful" and "stark" by the reviewing hack.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
07:31 / 02.01.03
See, I'd be a bit worried about lumping Mills & Boon stuff into hackdom. It's perhaps a hackneyed form or style, but the writers themselves tend not to be - because it's all spec writing, the editors/publishers tend to be merciless with the quality of what comes through - they're quite selective, apparently. Not just anyone can bang out a Mills & Boon - though I think this may just be that particular publishing house; others seem to be a little less concerned with style...
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
07:39 / 02.01.03
I'd say a hack writes for money, literature is written for the love of writing/self-expression/the desire to tell a story.

Of course, this is not to say that literature can't be fucking awful, or that you can't get some great hackwork.
 
 
Persephone
11:42 / 02.01.03
*shrieks*

Jacqueline Susann was not a hack!! She was a genius and a force of nature!

If you could separate literature into "literary" and "popular," I think that you would find hacks and geniuses on both sides. Steven King isn't a hack because he's popular, he's a hack because he's a haa-aa-aack. As for literary hacks, they are legion --loosed by the Iowa Writers Program and similar on a fairly regular basis. And the head literary hack in the U.S. is Joyce Carol Oates. If you hold one of her books to your head, you can hear the sound of her hacking: hack-hack-hack-hack...
 
 
The Photographer in Blowup
12:12 / 02.01.03
I'd say a hack writes for money, literature is written for the love of writing/self-expression/the desire to tell a story.

Who doesn't write for money? I'm not talking about making millions, like Stephen King, but who doesn't sell a book to try and pay the rent once in a while with them?

But i guess you're right, telling a good story is difficult, so most writers nowadays just go after what they know will sell, and sell good - books like The Hours are rare - that book is what i would call literature, anyway.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
15:12 / 02.01.03
I agree that any writer who writes purely for the love of writing is probably either terribly unworldly or already filthy rich. The idea that artists of any sort should be above material considerations annoys me; Cyril Connolly wrote that

'There is no more sombre enemy of good art than the pram in the hall'

- i.e. that responsibilities force a writer into hackdom to pay his bills - an irritatingly ivory-towerish approach to the problem. But then who cares about Cyril Connolly these days?

Yer original Grub Street hacks did hire themselves out to produce any and every kind of writing - they were, as the OED says, 'literary drudges' - most of the more famous professional writers of the early eighteenth century (when the term 'hack' became used in this sense) were actually dependent on patronage (Voltaire et al).

I'd call what Stephen King produces these days pot-boilers - he's not a hack per se - and loads of other well-off and successful writers publish practically nothing but pot-boilers (Anne McCaffrey, Robert Rankin, blah blah fishcakes). Perhaps this is because they are pressured into producing more work than they would like by publishers - perhaps their own quality control has gone to pot.

I would actually call a Mills and Boon writer a hack, but that is because I think the term probably applies to the status of the writer rather than the quality of the work.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
16:52 / 02.01.03
L.M. Rosa Would like to know what qualifies King as an expert on how to write,

I wondered how many replies I'd get through before someone bitched about King, thanks Rosa
Interestingly when you say

Popular books hardly ever are considered literature, perhaps because the critics must think if a great number of people understand the book, then it mustn't be very intelligent - the pretentious bastards.

That's pretty much what he says too, citing Chandler as an example of someone the 'great and the good' are sniffy about.

Chairman Maominstoat I'd say a hack writes for money, literature is written for the love of writing/self-expression/the desire to tell a story.

Then King isn't a hack then, 'cos on page 301 he said he did it for the love of writing and he wouldn't lie to me would he?
 
 
Jack Fear
18:17 / 02.01.03
Would like to know what qualifies King as an expert on how to write...

Well, he does, you know, do it an awful lot... a thousand words a day, every day for the last forty or so years. Stands to reason you'd pick up a thing or two about the mechanics of it, in all that time.
 
 
The Photographer in Blowup
19:01 / 02.01.03
Perhaps this is because they are pressured into producing more work than they would like by publishers - perhaps their own quality control has gone to pot.

Stephen King is not pressured, or do you think the editors still have the guts to boss him around? Considering the editing his novels need, i guess they just print whatever he gives them, when he wants to give them.

The reason why he writes such crap is because he needs to be always working, without leaving time to think about what he's writing - he's one of those who prefers quantity over quality, and then we get crap about Hotels that forget their own boilers are about to explode - talk about a Deus Ex Machina ending, you couldn't get worst even in comic books.

I agree that any writer who writes purely for the love of writing is probably either terribly unworldly or already filthy rich. The idea that artists of any sort should be above material considerations annoys me; Cyril Connolly wrote that

'There is no more sombre enemy of good art than the pram in the hall'

- i.e. that responsibilities force a writer into hackdom to pay his bills


Yeah, like everybody else they have responsabilities, but they're in a too important medium to work just for money, and rather than just writing a lot, they should first and foremost write well - but i think even the readers nowadays are getting tired of having to think too hard about what they're reading, and prefer formulaic plots where all imagination is extinguished in detriment of a quick resolution seen a mile away.

That's pretty much what he says too, citing Chandler as an example of someone the 'great and the good' are sniffy about.

Who would say such an awful thing about poor Raymond? If it weren't for him and others like Dashiell Hammett, there wouldn't be the pulpy hard-boiled literature of the '30's that influenced so many writers in future years - why, even Robert Towne owes something to Chandler for his Chinatown movie - I already hate the critics even more now; for once Stephen King is right.

Then King isn't a hack then, 'cos on page 301 he said he did it for the love of writing and he wouldn't lie to me would he?

He's a hack for preferring the quantity over quality, anyway; just because he loves his work, doesn't mean he writes well - Ed Wood LOVED movies, and he's famous for being the worst director of all times.

Well, he does, you know, do it an awful lot... a thousand words a day, every day for the last forty or so years. Stands to reason you'd pick up a thing or two about the mechanics of it, in all that time.

So he's obsessive about his work and can't stop working; he can write every day, but if he writes the same stuff without ever evolving, then what has he learned at the end of it? His work has stagnated, he's been out of fresh good ideas for a long time, and his work is only slightly better than the ordinary hack writer.
 
 
Jack Fear
19:33 / 02.01.03
I must ask--have you actually read Stephen King's On Writing?
 
 
The Photographer in Blowup
19:48 / 02.01.03
I'm reading it - each time i go to the supermarket i read another chapter; or do you think i'm going to pay for it? Like's it worth my money...

Anyway, i've skipped the part where he rambles on about being in a wheelchair, so i'm reading it quickly.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
20:46 / 02.01.03
He's a hack for preferring the quantity over quality, anyway; just because he loves his work, doesn't mean he writes well - Ed Wood LOVED movies, and he's famous for being the worst director of all times.

Not entirely true. He's popularly held to be the worst director of all time - which arose in the '80s, pretty much, not really when he was alive - but really is just one with quirk. It's never been categorically proven, and I doubt you could do so empirically. In terms of godawful, there's been worse things released by bigger studios with bigger names; being famous for being the worst director is different than actually being one. At which point it devolves into whether you think pushing questionable ethics/points of view or bad technique are constituent parts of "worst".

Not wanting to dig, but is this more about a beef you have with King rather than the idea of hackdom, writers and writing as a whole? I think it's a little shortsighted to reject the thoughts of someone who - as Jack has said - has spent his life successfully doing what people here only talk big about, even if it is populist and lacks backing. The one reason I respect King - and I don't think he's written much worth a damn in years (though I haven't read the book in question yet) - is because I read an interview with him once where he admits that he's not reinventing the wheel; that he's taking classic storylines or ideas and making phonebooks of text around them. He's not under the impression that he's writing Great Literature, but by the same token, he's not a hack. Why? He's doing it, as has been pointed out, for the love of writing; certainly not (at this point) for financial necessity.

According to my dictionary, "hack" refers to "dull and tedious" (according to my Macquarie, anyway) work, or to damage by cutting ruthlessly. It could be argued that I am a hack at times, in the latter sense, as I'm a subeditor - though one with a little subtlety - but I'd argue that many of the people writing today *aren't* hacks by the proper definition (as KCC indicated, the Grub Street hacks, say). I would've thought "hack" more applicable to basic copywriting, mind-numbing editorial and books-of-the-film than novels per se.
 
 
The Photographer in Blowup
21:59 / 02.01.03
Not wanting to dig, but is this more about a beef you have with King rather than the idea of hackdom, writers and writing as a whole?

I admit i almost hate Stephen King - think it's about time Ramsey Campbell gets the title of King of Horror - but i only brought him up here because Lord mentioned his book, On Writing, and find it absurd that people actually think it's better than most how-to books tecahing the art of writing - it must actually be worst.

The one reason I respect King - and I don't think he's written much worth a damn in years (though I haven't read the book in question yet) - is because I read an interview with him once where he admits that he's not reinventing the wheel; that he's taking classic storylines or ideas and making phonebooks of text around them. He's not under the impression that he's writing Great Literature, but by the same token, he's not a hack. Why? He's doing it, as has been pointed out, for the love of writing; certainly not (at this point) for financial necessity.


The guy said he uses classic storylines as a basis for his work? And people still buy his books like they buy fucking candies for kids? Then it's not him i hate, but his readers, because only a smart guy can feed a whole planet with cliched ideas around for years and actually get away with it for 25 years - guess he's retiring because there's no more good ideas to steal, then.

But i agree, a guy who now only writes for the joy and fun of it, and loves the writing medium does deserve respect - i'm with you there.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
03:18 / 03.01.03
Then it's not him i hate, but his readers, because only a smart guy can feed a whole planet with cliched ideas around for years and actually get away with it

But isn't it the case that there's only a couple of classic storylines anyway? So how is King any different from anyone else, except that it's writers like he (and Clancy and Smith et al) that keep the Christmas Tome business in - er - business?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
04:02 / 03.01.03
Cat kind of hit what I was trying to say on the head- of course all (or most) professional writers write for money- but if that's the primary, or indeed only, reason, I'd call it hackwork.

I wouldn't necessarily call King hackwork, though he does use something of a money-making formula. Hmm. Bit of a grey area.
 
 
Jack Fear
12:29 / 03.01.03
[I] find it absurd that people actually think {On Writing is] better than most how-to books tecahing the art of writing - it must actually be worst.

Except that that's not really what it is, is it? The title of the King book is not "How To Write." It is "On Writing: A Memoir of the Craft." And on that score, it delivers.

I found the book remarkably even-handed as regards questions of taste, and it expressly avoids the question of "ideas"; it's pretty basic stuff about the mechanics of prose, of moving a story forward, of revision and discipline, and the proper balance between art and life.

For what it was, I found it pretty interesting.

As a "how-to-write" book? Yeah, fairly useless. Useless as a cookbook, too, or as an atlas of Tanzania. Of course, it's not actually trying to be any of those things.
 
 
The Photographer in Blowup
14:11 / 03.01.03
For what it was, I found it pretty interesting.

Really, and what was the book about after all?
 
 
Sax
18:16 / 03.01.03
Um, didn't he just say?

I thought it was okay. Actually, I thought it was quite inspirational. I'm no fan of King's, but I don't hate him any more than I hate, say Grisham or Anne Rice. It's big and populist and your hairdresser reads it but... so what? The success of King probably paved the way for more horror writers to get published than anyone else. And if hacks get people who don't normally pick up books to actually go out and buy 'Salem's Lot after they've sat through 14 hours or whatever it is of Taken, well, that isn't so bad, is it? Gosh, next thing you know we might even get 'em reading comics, like us.
 
 
The Photographer in Blowup
19:32 / 03.01.03
Okay, he got more people to read, and that's good, despite the crap they read when they read his novels, anyway.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
22:37 / 03.01.03
< Ok, Bengali in Platforms here, cross-dressing >

Just wondered what this:

Yeah, like everybody else they have responsabilities, but they're in a too important medium to work just for money

meant.

This is in books so I suppose it's fair enough, but signifies to me a situation on barbelith where it's only really textually creative folk(and mainly prose writers) who talk about their process.

In what relationship do the writers 'in a too important medium to work just for money' stand to other creatives -poets, playwrights, visual artists, designers, composers, musicians? Are they in less important mediums, where it's creatively easier to cash in?

Just curious.
 
 
The Photographer in Blowup
12:06 / 04.01.03
In what relationship do the writers 'in a too important medium to work just for money' stand to other creatives -poets, playwrights, visual artists, designers, composers, musicians?

You actually learn something from looking at a Picasso? I mean something practical and that you can use later in your life, not some crap about finding the instrospective meaning of the color blue, and whether the red means the virginal blood of the person painted?

And i include poets and playwrights 'in a too important medium to work just for money' - everyone that writes something that gets printed, unless you'll also tell me you learn a lot of historic facts from just watching Gladiator? Or from the next CD of Eminem? Or the next fancy Armani suit?
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
13:00 / 10.01.03
Sorry Rosa but you're being too opaque for me here. Are you saying that writers have some sort of obligation to write 'the truth' but everyone else can do whatever they feel like? I feel that concentrating on King (my fault for bringing him up) has been a bad thing.
 
 
lentil
15:06 / 10.01.03
So Rosa, I guess you have a daily regime based on the practical lifestyle advice you gleaned from Finnegan's Wake, right?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
15:20 / 10.01.03
And i include poets and playwrights 'in a too important medium to work just for money' - everyone that writes something that gets printed, unless you'll also tell me you learn a lot of historic facts from just watching Gladiator?

I think anyone who looks to novelists, poets and playwrights to provide them with historical facts (let's not have the what-is-a-historical-fact argument here, I'm really out of practice) is barking up the wrong tree... literature and other forms of art surely don't seek to show their audience the truth, but a truth - or perhaps part of the truth, would be a better way of putting it.
 
 
The Photographer in Blowup
17:17 / 10.01.03
Sorry Rosa but you're being too opaque for me here. Are you saying that writers have some sort of obligation to write 'the truth' but everyone else can do whatever they feel like?


I meant, in the creative medium wrting is the only way of really teaching something, something worth learning, that can be used later on in life.

Unless there's something to take from Dali's paintings. That's exactly what i think: the others can do whatever they want - they can paint dark canvas without meaning, they can make crappy european movies that are the director's fantasy, forgetting that some poor viewer actually paid a ticket to watch something besides a white screen with some secret narrator making philosophical questions without answers - yep, writing is the ultimate medium for passing a message.

I think anyone who looks to novelists, poets and playwrights to provide them with historical facts (let's not have the what-is-a-historical-fact argument here, I'm really out of practice) is barking up the wrong tree... literature and other forms of art surely don't seek to show their audience the truth, but a truth - or perhaps part of the truth, would be a better way of putting it.

I think i prefer that to the 'no truth at all' when i look at some impressionist painting taken from a guy's dream - even the most crude of books ends up telling a truth, teaching something.

So Rosa, I guess you have a daily regime based on the practical lifestyle advice you gleaned from Finnegan's Wake, right?

Who/what is Finnegan's Wake, and what are you implying?
 
 
DaveBCooper
17:19 / 10.01.03
Um, coming in late, but :

Q:What qualifies King to talk about writing etc ?
A: Well, as well as the whole ‘he’s written a couple of books’ thing, wasn’t he a teacher of English Literature in the past ? So you might argue that he’s got an insight into the business of scribbling on an academic and practical level ?
And it’s always a bit thorny to ask people what their qualifications are to talk about certain things, isn’t it ? I mean, Joe Queenan’s film (‘Twelve Steps to Death’, I think) was supposed to be not-very-good, but I find his film reviews frequently incisive and/or funny, so I’m not really needing to see his credentials…

Re : the boiler blowing up at the end of the Shining – I’m working from memory here, but isn’t Torrance character told to watch this fairly early on in the book? So when he’s possessed by the Hotel, you might say that his knowledge of this goes too. But if it is set up early – and I think it may even be during the Torrances’ first visit to the Overlook Hotel – I think it’s a bit unfair to call it a Deus Ex Machina. Sure, he may have gone back and slotted it in after the event, but the same might be the case with the opening line of To Kill A Mockingbird, foreshadowing later stuff, to pick a moderately random example.

And to answer the opening question: dunno for sure, but I think ‘hack’ might be one of those words that elicits an emotion reaction, no matter how accurate or otherwise its use. I think it tends to be used more as a shorthand for your feelings than in a way that invites people to ask you to explain yourself in greater detail, if you see what I mean ?

DBC
 
 
lentil
11:26 / 11.01.03
Finnegan's Wake is a rather well-known novel by James Joyce. I was basically saying what KCC said in the post immediately after mine, but in a terse and slightly snarky manner. Apologies (for the manner, not the content).

But I do think your dismissal of visual arts as transmitters of "useful" information is pretty blinkered. I will concede that verbal communication is very efficient at getting details across, but to say that there is "no truth" in the Impressionist painting you look at that is "taken from a guy's dream" (leaving aside the fact that you cannot have done this, as Impressionist paintings have nothing to do with dreams; they are an imitation of nature through light and colour) is to utterly deny that what is presented to you as a work of art, in whatever medium, contains the artist's response to a particular aspect of the world.

And surely whether or not you take "something worth learning, that can be used later on in life" from any piece of art depends to a great extent on interpretation anyway? Picasso famously created his "Head of a Bull" (apologies for lack of link - Google seems to be down) from a bicycle seat and handlebars. Viewing this work, being fooled by the illusion while retaining the awareness that what you are looking at is simply bicycle parts. This reaction illuminates part of the process of perception - the interplay between "normal" perception and "projection" (the same process by which we see butterflies in Rorschach inkblots, faces in clouds), which contributes to our understanding of how we see the world, which I think it's fair to say is pretty useful.

I've deliberately used a comparitively modern example but there are thousands of examples of visual art used for communication of information; pre-photography images (paintings, prints etc) were used to record likenesses, understand anatomy, illustrate moral and social lessons, depict myths and stories, and funnily enough, historical events, as full of "facts" as anything else you'd care to mention.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
12:53 / 11.01.03
Rosa, are you saying this teaches us nothing?
 
 
Jack Fear
12:54 / 11.01.03
So, Rosa, you've essentially rejected art for art's sake...

...and you've essentially rejected the idea of writing for money...

...so the only acceptable purpose of writing is "communication"? Sending a message?

Well, fuck it, then: let's burn down all the libraries and book shops, and put telegram offices in their place.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
12:56 / 11.01.03
Rosa, are you saying that this contains no useful information?
 
 
The Photographer in Blowup
17:02 / 11.01.03
You say Picasso's art, for instance, can alter our perceptions concerning how we perceive the world. But, Lentil, how many ways can we really see it? Paint a rock green on a canvas, a tree white, but that doesn't change how they are in reality, and how people truly see them.

Visual art immediately hits our visual senses, but on a canvas, an orange is still an orange, and we only see, at it's crudest form and depending on the artist's skills, a round orange shape; but a book can tell you what how its fragrance smells, its taste, its texture, its weight - so many more things the canvas cannot reveal.

Now, even the most reality-centred writer has a different approach to our world - but aren't Hardy, Hemmingway, Steinbeck, or Saramago's, just to name a few, books visions of worlds you can identify yourself with, better than you could if looking at a Picasso? Remember, to pass knowledge, the receiver must first understand what they're receiving.

pre-photography images (paintings, prints etc) were used to record likenesses, understand anatomy, illustrate moral and social lessons, depict myths and stories, and funnily enough, historical events, as full of "facts" as anything else you'd care to mention.

Photography does pass information, indeed, but how different is a photograph than a 19th century panting, in that both are more historical documments than anything else? And wouldn't photography be more related to journalism, whose main fucntion is to pass information.

But is the information received from a newspaper/tv similar to the one from a book? A newspaper/tv only deals with recent news affecting us immediately - wars, natural disasters, electoral results, soccer results - but a book can deal with any subject, from any period, many times over and still discover something new or give history/reality an updated account.

Now, you could say a channel like History Channel does the same, but television is limited by time - a docummentary wouldn't be more than 40 minutes, and that's what we get; a painting, likewise, what's drawn on it can't be changed.

But a book can spend 100, 200, 500, 1000 pages on a single subject; if one written one hundred years ago is wrong, new books nowadays can refute it, they can explore every last avenue of history because it has space for it; , and that's what a book is: a repository for knowledge. The same can't be said of a Picasso.
 
 
Jack Fear
17:19 / 11.01.03
Is it the duty of art (or writing) to be informative?
Isn't it enough that it be beautiful?
 
  

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