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Underground > Books, Criticism & Writing >

How do I get a job in publishing?

  
 
Lionheart
21:59 / 17.12.02
How do I get a job in publishing?

What type of jobs are there? I wouldn't at all mind reading manuscripts and/or doing research.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
23:30 / 17.12.02
Be more specific. It's pretty difficult to walk into something more than entry-level - publishing is very much rooted in who knows who, and, more importantly, predicated on the fact that anyone with some facility with language can do the job. (I'm referring to the writing/composing/whatever side more than design and production, obviously.) You need to know what you specifically want to aim for and hammer that away. Freelancing is probably a good way to start if you're writing, but much to my chagrin, walking in to somewhere as an editor isn't really going to happen. Unless you're talking niche publishing; in which case, Pissed Off Fat Bastard Monthly is all mine.

I worked in the mailroom and hung around long enough, before I got it good enough to move onto a subs' role. I became chief sub of a mag, and I'm now a senior sub on a bigger mag after my years overseas. And the thing I've noted is that it really is about people knowing people - that's how lots of positions are filled. It is difficult to get a foot in the door, and you can expect to do low-level shite for a while, at least until you get a name or have a rainbow shot up your ass, or something of that ilk.

Also: be prepared to WORK. Hard. There's always someone else out there who can do what you do, so preciousness shouldn't really be a concern - though you wouldn't necessarily know it from the egos you'll run into.

As for reading manuscripts: I'd love to do that, but I understand that book publishing is even more fcked up than magazine publishing in terms of supply/demand for jobs.

Hey, it sounds like I'm down on the idea. I'm not. Media is great. Publishing is great. There's wankers in every field, and more than average here, but you get a sense, no matter what it is you work on, that someone's enjoying what you do, that you help someone relax, or get motivated, or angry, or learn something, or whatever. Yep, there's problems I have with my job and about the level of - uh - taste involved. But I admit that it ain't mine, and think that it could be worse; being paid to work with words is one of the better things to do, even if it means you pick up EVERY FUCKING TYPO THERE IS, in a really obnoxious style.

Except in my own posts, obviously.

Hey, there's people here who can help you out more with various branches. I'm more mags. grant could give you the good oil on newsprint, I guess, while I believe there's a couple of fiction/non-fiction people here: sleaze was working in NF, IIRC.

Maybe there's something related to publishing but not actually in it that's close to what you want, if it's something like research you're interested in? Publishers do farm out a lot of stuff, y'know...
 
 
Lionheart
00:40 / 18.12.02
What does "farm out" mean?

And I wanna get a job in book publishing. Don't know what jobs there are though.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
01:34 / 18.12.02
Farm out = outsource.

Book publishing: depends where you want to work, and on what sort of books. You could probably start working your way up in a no-name, small-rep place and try to jump across to a major from there; but be warned that it is fairly incestuous, prone to internecine squabbles, and will require long work for shit pay, especially at the outset. And that's only if you want to answer the phones. I know people who've applied for even administrative positions at bigger companies and been overwhelmed by the number of people applying, and the general quality of applicants. Many people who dig books want to work with them - and if you're talking about Arts grads, that could be pretty much all of 'em.

What are your skills? Are you qualified to work in books in some capacity, or is this more an idle thought? It is very competitive, especially in the major houses. I keep hoping someone at Penguin or Picador will die and mysteriously leave me the "signs up shit and edits/reads manuscripts" job, but I don't think it's going to happen.

What is it you're prepared to do? What do you want to do? There's a range of jobs: writer, researcher, pic editor, designer/typesetter, colour specialist, photographer, anything in the production department, proofreader/sub/editor/whatever, and all the ancilliary staff as well. There's a lot of things to do, but competition is fierce, and there ain't much safety, unless you're in with a bigger fish than you, or are nigh-on irreplaceable in terms of the job you do.

Have you had any experience in the area? That's usually the big killer.
 
 
wembley can change in 28 days
07:35 / 18.12.02
Gee, Rothko - if I didn't know better I'd say you like your job!

A good friend of mine is also someone who wants to get a job in publishing but doesn't have a clue how to go about it - so out of curiosity, what would help for someone who is NOT suited for PR, but is an excellent editor (for style at least), a voracious reader and simply loves books? Rothko, you know her pretty well - so her qualifications are basically dead smart and good at answering phones. This, I assume, is where most people start. How do you get the experience? What would impress?
 
 
rizla mission
11:44 / 18.12.02
I'm also someone who wants to get a job in publishing but doesn't have a clue how to go about it.

The Careers folk say; unless you already have expereince working for a local or student paper, you don't, basically. (Apparently 'work' for e-zines and self-published stuff doesn't count).

I was actually going to start a thread along these lines at some point, since I know numerous people here work in various jobs of this sort, and in terms of something I'm likely to get paid money for that won't be absolutely hellish, "media wanker" sounds a pretty promising vocation..
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
12:20 / 18.12.02
Rizla: if they've been long-enough established and have rigorous editorial processes, then online work usually is good enough for a portfolio. Regular homemade zines don't cut it - except with more guerilla publishers - because generally (and yes, it's an assumption) the production process is lax, scheduling is nonexistent (the "when it's done" idea tends to kick in when you run out of glue) and there isn't that much to be said for writing for spec or to order in those circumstances: sure, you're writing stuff that fits the call of the zine, but if you started it yusself, you're not gonna be... you see what I mean, right? Student papers are some help, yes, but most are fairly lax, too, so while it sounds like they'll be a great boon to you, in the end they may not be that much use: certainly, the difference in work processes isn't small, to say the least.

Except there's an equal amount of shit stuck up on the walls of any (dis)respectable newsroom as there is at uni.

And while the careers people are probably sounding bitchy about the prospects of cold-cracking it, they're probably right. I have had family work in media for generations. It's what was done, and it's pretty much been expected that that's what I'd do - so from early on I was a bit more au fait with how some things worked than other people were, and I think that bit of nous has helped out in getting me where I am.

Wembley; if this is C you're talking about, I think she'd be better served - as would anyone who's looking to break in without having found a chink in the armour already - is to consider the freelance route. There's people here who'll be more hands-on with how to get the foot in the door, but basically, I've found the trend is for mags to increasingly use freelancers they can pay a couple of hundred to, and take the rights for a story off. Cleaner than staff, y'see. If you get liked/known enough, you can end up on staff, and it's all go from there. But until then, it;s about taking any opportunity for writing or whatever that arises, and concentrating on building up a broad portfolio, and putting your name out there. There's no rules really, except that it is about who you know, so you have to be able to prove you can do a job and get some kind of contact base down pretty sharpish - basically, take whatever you can grab and stay there until they give you something better. This can be the most difficult part, as junior wages can be incredibly shit.

Advertising's better paid, largely, but... then again, it is advertising...
 
 
wembley can change in 28 days
12:32 / 18.12.02
"By the way, if anyone here is in marketing or advertising... kill yourself. Just planting seeds is all I'm doing. No joke here. Really. Seriously kill yourself. You have no rationalization for what you do. You are Satan's little helpers. Kill yourself, kill yourself, kill yourself now. Okay, back to the show..."

[ end thread rot ]
 
 
Old brown-eye is back
12:37 / 18.12.02
At the risk of over simplfying things, my tactic was to go on a journalism course and then get a job. (While getting as much stuff published and as much work experience as humanly possible in the meantime.) A lot of the time, it is about who you know - but those of us that ended up with jobs (about ten out of seventeen) managed it on their own, with only the occasional college lead to help out. In the words of Sly and the Family Stone, you can make it if you try.
 
 
gridley
13:16 / 18.12.02
Well, in America, the first step to getting a job in book publishing is being in New York City or the immediate environs. If you have a some college literary magazine and/or college newspaper work on your resume, and if you send that resume to every publishing company in town's HR dept. asking for editorial positions, you'll probably get some interviews for "editorial assistant."

Editorial Assistant is a pretty decent job. You basically help your editor with their books. A lot of it is secretarial, but you really learn the business, and you meet just about about everybody in the company. At the company I worked for (William Morrow), the editorial assistants would stay late one night a month (unpaid of course) to read through the slush manuscripts (unsolicited stuff) and see if anything was worth considering. If you found something, and you'd proved yourself to your editor, you might get a chance to publish it with you as the editor (I'm making it sound easier that it is, but it's doable. I acquired one book in the year or so I worked there.)

The biggest problem is the pay. I was making $16k, and that'll pretty much pay the rent on a cardboard box in NYC. Publishing has evolved as an "interesting little thing" for the children of the rich to do for a living. Most publishing companies assume you're being financed by your rich parents. If, like me, you don't have rich parents, you end up with a lot of roommates.

The best thing is that you're working in publishing, in the big city, and meeting some really cool people.

After 2-7 years as an editorial assistant, and having acquired a few reasonably successful books, you have a chance of getting promoted to assistant editor, which is just like being an editorial assistant except with more stress and more of your own books. After ten years, maybe you can be an associate editor. Editor is still a long ways away though....

Also, be aware that in New York City publishing anyway, you generally have to switch companies to get promoted. They call it the stair-step promotion or something like that. The good part about that is, you'll meet people at lots of different publishers, which means free books from lots of different publishers.

Hope that helps a little.
 
 
grant
13:45 / 18.12.02
Internships.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
16:08 / 18.12.02
Did a lot of temping in publishing, on the editorial/production sides and would second what Gridely says, pretty much.

Especially re. publishing being the kind of thing where it's assumed when you're starting out, mummy and daddy will probably be paying yr rent for a while... Eg I worked as an editorial assistant for a lovely small publishing company (kids books, cookery and gardening glossies): great people, lovely atmosphere, lots of secretarial work , but they were definitely keen to stretch me and involved me more and more in editorial and liaising with artists.

I was a temp but the equivalent full-time salary would have been £11k. In London.

You have to be prepared to be utterly skint while you're getting yourself established and picking up skills. And there are hundred people behind you willing to do it if you're not...

That said, it was't for me (it came down to not loving it enough to cope with being that poor for years, basically) but I could definitely see the appeal.

If you've got specialist areas of knowledge from past jobs/interests, that's one way to go at it. You'll still need to do the internship/voluntary/ed.as/secretarial route but it's another point in yr favour...
 
 
sleazenation
22:04 / 18.12.02
yep as already said it's definitely who you know.

I got my first job in publishing through an someone who worked in a school i used to go to who knew someone who had a packaging company...

All the junior positions in my current place of employment have been filled friends of the daughter of the boss' drinking friend.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:57 / 18.12.02
I'm seconding what Bengali said, my dad worked for Marion Boyars when I was very young and had to leave because he had a family to support, my parents would beat me if I went in to that industry (or teaching but that's a whole other story).
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
03:19 / 19.12.02
Unfortunately, as you can see, getting over the "can't win, don't try" thing is probably the hardest part.

The Rich Kids thing hasn't been at work where I've been - well, perhaps just not to the extent it has for other posters. It certainly ain't my personal experience; I'm still poor...
 
 
matsya
08:24 / 03.01.03
Okay, taking it back a bit... jobs in book publishing would break down to some of the following:

Editor - this can cover a lot of territory. Commissioning editors are people who to some extent pick which books a publishing company will publish. This is also the job of a publisher, but publishers have a lot more responsibility for the success the company has making money.
Non-commissioning editors are the ones who get the manuscript and work on it to get it to a publishable standard, sometimes by working with the author and recommending changes (big changes like new chapters, cutting whole sections, killing of characters in novels; or smaller changes like sentence structure and the like. The first type of editing is called "structural editing", the second type is called "copyediting") There's also proofreading, which is often given to more junior staff - that's the fine-tooth comb stuff that makes sure there are no typographical errors in the manuscript.

Designer - Publishing houses employ people either inhouse or on a freelance basis to do layout on the books - this is usually people with a graphic design degree or some such.

Marketing - These guys tend to be pretty fookin' powerful in publishing houses, and they do some weird arcane corporate bookselling kind of thing; forecast the likelihood of books to sell well and determine whether a book is a good financial risk or not (how they do this is greek to me).

Sales - I think these guys are a bit different from Marketing, as in they're the shlubs that actually sell the books to bookstores and so on.

Publisher - this is the big cheese. You're looking for more ground-level than this, I'm assuming.

There are also manuscript readers. I don't know what it's like in the US, but here in Australia almost all publishers don't accept manuscripts that they haven't themselves asked for. this doesn't stop authors from sending manuscripts in, and the end result is what they call the "slush pile". Most of my friends who've done work experience or volunteer work at publishers end up either doing a wee bit of proofreading or reading through the slush pile so the manuscripts can be sent back to the author with a "no thanks" letter. That might be a way to get into manuscript reading - offer to go through their unsolicited manuscripts.

As you can tell, I'm more of an editor type. I got into it by doing small poorly-paid editorial jobs on arts magazines and the like, and also by doing some volunteer work at publishing houses. The latter is a good way to get to know how things work, and also to introduce yourself to people who might be inclined to pay for your services in the long run ("hey, remember lionheart who did such a good job proofreading all those indexes for free? we should get him to proofread this book...")

You're stil in NYC, lionheart? A good place to be, lots of publishers around. If it was me wanting to start working in books in NYC I'd just call 'em all up and ask about - like grant says - internships, and work experience (or whatever you call it stateside) and see what happens. Get yourself inside a publishing office any way you can. Once you're in, be a model editor/proofreader/whatever and you're at least in with a chance.

And me? I work freelance these days for about half a dozen publishers in Melbourne, Australia. Got all the jobs by cold-calling. Before that I was two years with Lonely Planet and before that a year with Pearson publishing. I got the Pearson job based on six weeks volunteer work with a known local publisher, and then I had two publishers on my resume. You hoard the names you can drop and you drop them a lot. It snowballs in the end, if you persist.

Think about trying the same approach with magazine publishers too - it could give you the experience you need to get ahead, though at least here, the conventional wisdom is that book and magazine publishing are nothing at all alike. That's just a kind of snobbery on the part of book publishers, is my thinking.

Good luck matey. All the other posters in this thread are right, you know. There's no money in it. But it can be a lot of fun.

m.
 
 
shynola
11:25 / 15.04.04
sorry this has nothing to do with your train of conversation, but I can say you need to just go for anything you can get be it work experience and then move about once you're in there, it's easy to make friends and contacts in this industry.
probably no help sorry, but I have a question. I live in the UK and have been working in publishing for a while now. So have a bit of experience behind me, but i want to go and live in Australia and get work in publishing, can anyone, offer me any advice in terms of Australian publishing newsletters/ where to start? I'm not overly fussed on location provided it's not in some industrial estate in the suberbs.
 
 
Looby
14:37 / 21.04.04
Lionheart - Are you based in the UK? If so, I'm now working in the "media" and didn't have any experience when I finished university. I had done secretarial stuff in my summer holidays, so when I left I signed back on with the temping agencies I'd used before - Jigsaw, Career Moves etc. etc. They fairly swiftly found me an entry level job on a national newspaper as a secretary, and after that I got another support position in the broadcast media. I'm still in the middle of making the transition from support to production, but it's definitely happening. Getting in as a secretary is certainly a good foot in the door. Hope this helps.
 
 
matsya
21:56 / 22.04.04
shynola - there's this thing called the DW Thorpe Weekly Blue Newsletter that's kind of the local industry gossip/trade rag, and it has positions vacant in it that often mention editorial positions. If you could get your hands on that somehow that might be useful.

Another place in oz to look for editorial work is artshub, which has a members-only jobsearch email. I'm on that list, and if you didn't want to subscribe yourself, maybe you could PM me your email and I could forward them to you when they arrive.

Those are kind of the two best places to look in terms of editorial/publishing work. Speaking geographically, there are more publishers based in Sydney than there are in Melbourne, where I am, but there's work to be had with either. Bearing in mind that it's a small, kind of bitchy and poorly-paid industry down here. The kind of starting salary you'd be looking at is low 30K (australian play money) and in terms of advancement it can take a long time to move up. That said, there seems to be a pretty high turnover of jobs in the industry, which you can draw your own conclusions on.

What's your background re: publishing? I'd say if you had some experience working in the UK, the local publishers would probably be quite interested in you.

Another tip from me would be to check out Lonely Planet and see if they have any jobs going. They're not great employers, but they're good to have on the resume, and they have a pretty high turnover themselves (speaks volumes - i used to work for them and oh the stories i could and do tell, but that's another post entirely), so chances might be quite good there.

an insight into the crappiness of australian publishing in general (that is to say the state of the industry more than the state of the books produced) is this old parody of the DW Thorpe newsletter, which was reputed to be written by someone who worked at Penguin Australia, or some other heavy-hitter. It was called The Blue Blue News and was very funny. It stopped mysteriously a while back, but the archives are still up.

that's all i can think of, off the top of my head.

m.
 
 
shynola
11:19 / 29.04.04
Thanks for that, I'll certainly check out the Blue Newsletter.

I currently work in production. I'd rather work in Sydney although I hear that Melbourne is more popular with the Brits because of it's cultural outlook? I'm certainly chasing the sun anyway. I don't mind changing my area of work in fact the only reason I'm persuing publishing production roles is because I have a lot of experience in this field and I know most places always cry out for production staff because it's a job that not many people find particularly glamorous.
I don't like the sound of the bitchy or poorly paid industry, although I have to be honest this is exactly what I don't enjoy about the industry here! ( is this why I'm running from it?) Here the company's are 75% female the majority of whom have major issues with egotism and authority complexes, which is generally bad news for anyone who's in a first job/ assistant role ( be warned I have experienced this first hand). Unless you enjoy massaging people's egos, and being spoken to like a 12 year old of course? In which case Go for it!
I've worked for Harper Collins and Penguin and some other smaller mind body soul publishers, now I work for a small publishers again which is much nicer and a step from the norm. Penguin was absolutely shocking and I can see why someone from this background could be cynicle about the industry since their reputation seems to outshine the reality of working for this group. My experiences there were not good, but that is not to say anyone else's might not be, it's all about personalities I think.
I'm disappointed to hear the industry is in a bad way in Austrlia. Perhaps the question I should be asking myself is how one can transfer the skills from publishing into other areas of work.

Thanks a lot
S
 
 
matsya
01:10 / 02.05.04
Well, that just sounds exactly the way things are here in Aust. Generally speaking there are a lot of similarities between Uk, Us and Australia in terms of the way things get done, so it's not surprising to hear similar stories about UK publishing.

like i said, i'm trying to get out myself. The work itself - in publishign - can be really fun and interesting, but too often the work environment is nigh on intolerable. for me, anyway. in the long run it's a matter of taste.

m.
 
 
semioticrobotic
01:20 / 18.12.06
Some great information has been dispensed in this thread. Thanks to everyone who contributed so far.

So my Masters in communication is almost finished and I've been considering work in (US) publishing. Specifically, a major academic press is hiring at the entry-level of their journals arm, and it seems like something I'd really enjoy doing. Judging by the job advertisement, I'd be responsible for working with Web-based content (this press publishes its articles online as well as on dead trees) and with various clients (its vague in this area).

Does anyone have experience working for an academic press in the US? Would someone like me -- with five years journalism experience and an advanced degree in communication -- be alright?
 
 
Closed for Business Time
11:17 / 18.12.06
I dunno if this'd help - but a good friend of mine is now chief marketing officer of a major Scandinavian publisher. He started his adult life as a plumber (for Chrissakes!), eventually nearly got a MA in Lit, and then worked his way up in a chain of locally owned book-stores. He started out as a store assistant but eventually proved his literary acumen, got promoted to "responsible for native language fiction inna giant store"-person/type/man and then eventually landed a really sweet job in this publishing Co. (see www.damm.no). We're not exactly talking Penguin here... and I guess it mostly proves that in a small country such as Norway it's a heck of a lot easier to get a job de la creme than it is in NYC/London/Paris/New Crobuzon... FTR he's got feck all to do with the editorial side of things. Which, on a personal note, makes me believe he will tire of his present post, since that (editing) was his original motivation and goal for going into the business in the first place.
He could've continued being a pro death metal drummer, with a plumbing job on the sly! Why on earth would he wanna ditch that? Oh wait...
 
  
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