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What is a Tragedy? (Aeschylus and the Oresteia)

 
 
iconoplast
18:00 / 15.12.02
Haus said:

The Oresteia is not a tragedy (or, more correctly, three tragedies) because everybody dies. It's three tragedies because they were put on as tragedy, because in turn each is organised with a prologue, the entry of the chorus, a series of episodes and stasima, and finally an epilogue. Also, the Oresteia addresses "tragic themes" - the relationship of gods and men, justice, hubris, blah, blah, fishcakes. But the same structure is used by Euripides' Helen, which is a long way off being a "tragedy" in the modern sense, but is still clearly a tragedy.

Then L.M. Rosa said:

Oresteia is a tragedy because of the form rather than it's content - and no, no one dies at the end of Eumenides, but many many others die during the two previous parts of Oresteia (Orestes' father and step-mother)

But for my knowledge (and it's scarce regarding greek tragedies - hope University will clear that problem) the basis of the tragedy is that all the events are triggered off by a death and someone always dies.

So although Oedipus survives at the end of Oedipus Rex, the events of the play begin after he kills his own father, and his mother/wife Jocasta hangs herself (and let's not forget Oedipus blinds himself)

Thus i think it's right to say someone always dies in a tragedy.


So Haus is all,

Aristotle describes tragdy as "an imitation of a noble and complete action, having the proper magnitude". That frequently *involves* death, because many great actions involve death, but it doesn't *necessitate* death.

Tragoidos is a formal definition, describing a play written with a prologos (where a single speaker introduces the action), a parodos (where the chorus enters, usually through the sides of the stage but in the Eumenides unusually through the back of the stage - very startling stage effect, this), and then alternating episodai (where the characters interact in largely imabic verse) and stasima (where the chorus comments on a topic related to the action), ending with an exodos, where the action is resolved and the chorus leaves the stage after delivering a brief final speech.

The trilogy of the Oresteia is tragedy not because everybody dies, or indeed because anyone dies, particularly, but because it was structured in a particular way and entered as a tragedy in the dramatic contest of the Great Dionysia at Athens. It has many tragic elements and themes, as I believe I mentioned above. But the bodycount has nothing to do with it per se.


And then L. M. Rosa is, like,

1 - the action of the Oresteia begins with the death of Agamemnon at the hands of Clytaemestra as far as the story told in the trylogy is involved, but i know that this comes from crimes committed generations ago, in a cicle of avenging crimes with other crimes, until it's settled in Eumenides (please tell i'm right)

2 - I know very well the structure of a tragedy: the prologue, parodos, episodes, stasimas and the exodos, their meaning and purpose

Finally, i really should have remembered that Clytaemestra is Orestes' mother (must pay more attention to my professor) as the Furies avenge murders within a family involving family blood (a step-mother wouldn't share any blood link with a step-son)
 
 
iconoplast
18:13 / 15.12.02
Haus brought up Aristotle, which you have to do when talking tragedy, so just for the purposes of framing the debate, I'm going to quote him, on tragedy. (Not all of it, though. It's longer than I remember)

"Tragedy is essentially an imitation not of persons but of action and life, of happiness and misery. All human happiness and misery takes the form of action; the end for which we live is a certain kind of activity, not a quality. Character gives us qualities, but it is in our actions - what we do - that we are happy or the reverse. In a play accordingly they do not act in order to portray the Characters; they include the Characters for the sake of the action. So that it is the action in it, i. e. its Fable or Plot, that is the end and purpose of the tragedy; and the end is everywhere the chief thing. Besides this, a tragedy is impossible without action, but there may be one without Character."

Now, while this strikes me as an Ancient Greek Action Movie, I also remember that Aristotle went on to say that tragedies needed to involve a man of good character brought low through his tragic flaw, had to take place in one place and in the span of twenty four hours, and... and maybe some other stuff, too.

But I don't see where it says that someone has to die.
Nevertheless:
People die in most tragedies.
Most people in tragedies die.

And, to return briefly to the action movie trope, I'm always dissapointed at a movie that kills the hero off at the end. Because that's the easy way of making it a "serious story," or a tragedy. And I've gotten to feel like it's a cop out. What's a good tragedy that the main character lives through? And, how do you make a story tragic without killing off the main character?
 
 
The Strobe
20:25 / 15.12.02
Tragedy, as my degree course tells me by spending a fifth of a year on it, is a big thing, and trying to pin it down is quite tricky. And after a term on it, I'm none the wiser, really. But I can provide a few pointers:

Yes, it's interesting to bring up Aristotle, but do bear in mind that he's not a be all and end all. He's trying to fit a set of rules to already extant plays - Tragedy was never written ACCORDING to what Aristotle wrote; he came later and tried to pin out down, not necessarily entirely successfully. I mean, similarly, Nieztsche's Birth of Tragedy isn't bad, but the whole Appolline/Dyonisiac thing really gets a bit much by the end. Nietzsche would argue that Tragedy is the perfect balance of the Appolline (the reasoning, calculating) and the Dyonisiac (the ecstatic, passionate). To oversimplify hugely. Too much in either direction isn't quite perfect; the best Tragedy comes in the balance.

And if we're defining Greek Tragedy, then Haus very much has a point: three plays in a trilogy, following a set of conventions, performed on a set date in a particular festival (and this festival, the name of which escapes me and Haus will no doubt provide, is the only time in the Greek year that Tragedy is performed) as part of a competition.

What Tragedy has become from those original Greek beginnings is a different, bigger, shinier and more complicated kettle of fish. And you can go off on all sorts of lines, such as Revenge Tragedy, or the idea of Repetition, or cultural Tragedy, or whatever. But if you're talking about the Greeks and the Greeks alone, then there are definite characteristics - many of them in the context, not the text - that define precisely what a "tragedy" is.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:37 / 15.12.02
It's the Greater Dionysia, Paleface, although that's just in Athens, and there are suggestions that professional actors did something along the lines of touring companies or rep theatre. When the Syracusan expedition failed, Athenian prisoners were saved from the mines if they could recite Euripides- the Syracusans were mad for him.

So, yes, first work out whether you mean the Greek theatrical form tragedy, or just tragedy in general, would be a start. There's a difference betwen something being a tragedy and something being tragic, also...

(I feel a bit bad about correcting Rosa again, but stasima is the plural of stasimon. You don't get stasimas)
 
 
The Photographer in Blowup
21:55 / 15.12.02
Let us talk of Greek tragedy then, as the greeks themselves seemed to give it more importance than any other sort of literary genre - in the Greater Dionysia three of the plays would be tragedies, and a satirical play would follow them, possibly to raise the spectators spirits (people were actually shocked by tragedies centuries ago, it's not like nowadays with the dehumanized MTV audience)

Aeschylus was cunning enough to present the three tragedies required to participate as a trilogy - it's the only complete tragic trilogy that survived, as a statement to its importance

Aristotle summed up some of the aspects of the tragedy, but essentially of the play itself: plays would usually take place in one single set, during a span of twenty four hours - but these aspects are not strict, so a play may start and end in different places (thinking of Eumenides here, with its conclusion in Athens after Orestes runs from the temple of Apollo)

But i believe the definition of Tragedy depends on the point of view of the writer: Aeschylus draws a lot from the conflict between Man and God: Oresteia is at its core the birth of the jury as representative of human justice, taking the power of decision from Gods (i know the final verdict still depends on the goddess Athens, but greeks never cut ties entirely with their Gods); Prometheus Bound shows the wrath of the Gods for Prometheus having given fire to mortals)- plus the learning through suffering, and moral through fear/terror was patent in Oresteia

Sophocles always saw his tragedies as cycles, like day and night, one would bring the later - and for him such was the same with fortune and unhappiness - the present existence of fortune would mean that next would come unhappiness and vice-versa - change always interested him, and moral conflicts - Antigone best shows that

So each writer had a different point of view, in theme, message and content - thinking of this, i can't see anything linking all Tragedies besides its structure - only the conflict between characters is recurrent, or there would be no action, and that seems to mean a great deal to Aristotle; but like Paleface said, Aristotle is not the be all and end all, and there must something else.

Anyone could tell me what?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:39 / 15.12.02
Well, Nietzsche's The Birth of Tragedy has been mentioned, there's Steiner's The Death of Tragedy, neatly...personally, I rather like Taplin, but I'm probably biased. Lloyd Jones has some interesting things to say about tragedy, also - your professor should be familiar with the right bits.

Incidentally, is there a reason why you've left out Euripides?

(Incidentally incidentally, Greek tragedies are still shocking, if done right - you just don't get the chance to see them very often)
 
 
The Strobe
09:16 / 16.12.02
You can't leave out Euripedes! If only because he turns a lot of what you've said about Aeschylus and the way he writes upside-down, and often didn't just stick to one angle as to what "tragedy" entailed. This, of course, is probably why he didn't win many of the competitions, but he wrote some fantastic plays which probably survive translation and the centuries better than those of Aeschylus and Sophocles.

it's the only complete tragic trilogy that survived, as a statement to its importance

Could you explain this? Could it just be luck? You can't say that the ones that survived are the best. Yes, the Oresteia is superb, but Seven Against Thebes is pretty weak, really.

(I hope this is of some use. It is to me, because I find the subject so hard to begin with.)
 
 
wembley can change in 28 days
09:48 / 16.12.02
Another aspect of Aristotle's version of tragedy that has been overlooked here is the types of people portrayed. They are all nobles, a convention in tragedy which continued even through Shakespeare's work. When Aristotle mentions comedy in his Poetics, he briefly offers the observation that tragedy deals with characters who are noble in birth, and comedy is about the rabble - for the reason that it is uncivilised to laugh at kings and queens. When I go to heaven, I'm going to ask for a copy of his lost chapters on comedy.

I could be wrong, but did characters in tragedy (in western theatre) only shift to the bourgeois with the work of Lessing and other romantics in the 1800s?

On the shock value and the gore: Augusto Boal's Theatre of the Oppressed contains an excellent chapter on the social function of greek tragedy: as cautionary tale and crowd control. People learned in the theatre not to rock the boat. The cathartic element supposedly purges any desire in the audience to do as the main character does.

As far as catharsis goes, it's not quite so prevalent in modern theatre (although it still exists), and I personally think a part of its role in society has been taken over by the horror film. Have you ever watched two hours of people getting brutally murdered, spent most of that time curling your muscles into a nervous ball, and then noticed how relaxed you feel afterwards?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:24 / 16.12.02
Another aspect of Aristotle's version of tragedy that has been overlooked here is the types of people portrayed. They are all nobles, a convention in tragedy which continued even through Shakespeare's work.

Hoom...I think this may rest in a slight mistranslation - I don't have my Poetics to hand, but is it of esthloi? Because characters in tragedy, Greek or otherwise, don'thave to be noble necessarily in the sense of belonging to aristocratic families, although that's certainly the norm - but Medea, although a princess in her native land, has no role or lands in Greece - that's half the point. What she is, however, is esthlos; she is an exceptional person who finds herself in exceptional circumstances, and behaves in an exceptional way. It's the opposition of great character with extraordinary subject that tends to make Greek tragedy, and I think that a class-based reading is at best incomplete. After all, Pentheus, for example, ends up as a dismembered body in drag - not terribly dignified. Tragedy is lumped with epic, both of which describe *magnanimous* characters, whose familial nobility is both a narrative device and an objective correlative.

I think Boal's contention is also highly selective. Take Oedipus. In what sense is Oedipus a good example of a man who "steps out of line and is punished"? We see him as a man who understands entirely and works conscientiously to fulfil his duty to his state; having established that Thebes is languishing as a result of the unpunished murder of Laius, he exerts every sinew to fulfil his duty to the state and the gods. The cause of his downfall, his hamartia, is something over which he has no control and which only a very harsh judge indeed would say is his fault. He killed his father, not knowing that he was his father, and married his mother, not knowing that she was his mother. He can't be accused even of seditionm, since he didn't know Laius was the king of Thebes at the time. Jocasta tries to persuade him to neglect his duty as a good citizen, and fails. Is the message here that you should not seek to support justice in case you fall victim to it? I don't think so; it's a lot more complex than any single interpretation, especially one based on a very specific political viewpoint - ater 461, many Athenians would have described the place as to varying degrees ochlocratic anyway. Or, to look at Antigone, what we have there is an anti-establishment rebel, who has no place criticising or acting against the wishes of Creon, to whom she owes obedience as a man, an older relative and a head of state. He gives an edict, she defies it, and along the way rejects not only the paternal state but also the institution of marriage that underpins her entire future worth to that society, and is ultimately rousingly endorsed by the divine. Creon isn't evil (he isnt even, as far as we can tell, in any way disrespectful of the gods, unlike, say, Pentheus), but he is *wrong* - to obey the head of state (and not a usurper as in Heracles Mainomenos) is shown as being the wrong decision here, and those brave enough to stand up for the obligations to the Chthonic, primal, earthy (and thus in a way female) deities over the Olympian gods who represent the organisation of royal houses and cities, and the rectitude of kings and of men - Teiresias and Antigone herself - are vindicated, if at great cost. Creon is broken, and so, importantly, is his *line* - the death of Haemon represents the end of his dynasty.

On catharsis and the horror movie - it occurs to me that a statistically far greater proportion of the viewers at a 5th Century Dionysia would have personal experience of killing another human being face-to-face than the audience of a modern action movie. I wonder if that's significant....
 
 
wembley can change in 28 days
14:03 / 16.12.02
My apologies on bad wording on Boal, not having the book in front of me. I did find an article online that does a pretty good recap of Boal's ideas:

Like Brecht, Boal (1979) stands in functional agreement with but political antithesis to Aristotle. He agrees that theater should function in the life of the receiver, resonating their values and aspirations. Boal rejects Aristotle when he declares art independent in relation to politics.

Theater for Aristotle was one of the controls to teach and reinforce the inferior role of those deemed unequal. Boal interprets Aristotle's message as, "happiness consists in obeying the laws." Thus, he believes, Aristotle actually constructs a powerful political system, "for intimidation of the spectator for elimination of the bad or illegal tendencies of the audience."


And of course, your examples of Oedipus, Antigone and Creon fit well - I seem to remember Boal uses Oedipus as one of the characters in his argument.

The characters are exceptional people in exceptional circumstances, but I also remember a division in class in the Poetics:

A perfect tragedy should imitate actions which excite pity and fear, this being the distinctive mark of tragic imitation. It follows plainly, in the first place, that the change of fortune presented must not be the spectacle of a virtuous man brought from prosperity to adversity: for this moves neither pity nor fear; it merely shocks us. Nor, again, that of a bad man passing from adversity to prosperity: for nothing can be more alien to the spirit of Tragedy; it possesses no single tragic quality; it neither satisfies the moral sense nor calls forth pity or fear. Nor, again, should the downfall of the utter villain be exhibited. A plot of this kind would, doubtless, satisfy the moral sense, but it would inspire neither pity nor fear; for pity is aroused by unmerited misfortune, fear by the misfortune of a man like ourselves. Such an event, therefore, will be neither pitiful nor terrible. There remains, then, the character between these two extremes- that of a man who is not eminently good and just, yet whose misfortune is brought about not by vice or depravity, but by some error or frailty. He must be one who is highly renowned and prosperous- a personage like Oedipus, Thyestes, or other illustrious men of such families.


I had forgotten all that talk of "pity and fear," which is what makes Aristotle, Aristotle, and me just me. Even if I lose everything else he says about time and the nature of characters (much of which is connected with the aesthetics of the time), I think that the kernel of tragedy still is its ability to evoke pity and fear in the audience. I don't particularly think it's less dignified for Pentheus to end up in pieces of drag than it is for Oedipus to be the half-brother of his children, but I would definitely pity them and be afraid that my fate might end up something similar.

The nobility (or whatever word is more appropriate) of the tragic character is not something that applies any more, but I would agree that the virtue of the character (which I will define as as his or her concordance with justice) must be something with which the audience identifies, or we wouldn't cry when they're dead.

Hope this is helpful or even relevant - is the question really What is Greek Tragedy, or are we opening it up to what is tragedy now?
 
  
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