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Why people die in cyberspace?

 
 
The Photographer in Blowup
10:46 / 15.12.02
This is a concept that is very popular amongst ciberpunk novels, that if you die in cyberspace you also die in the real world. My question is, why?

Let's forget all that mindless crap that 'the body can't live without the mind' (tell that to a comatose guy and hope he'll hear it), and come up with a better reason.

Right now, i'm ready to believe anything new and original
 
 
Irony of Ironies
12:20 / 15.12.02
Someone that's comatose actually has a high level of mental activity, in comparison with someone dead.
 
 
The Photographer in Blowup
12:48 / 15.12.02
the cyberspace deals with an ethereal part of the mind, not the brain as a physical organ - and brain damage is usually because a part of the brain tissue is wounded.

I liken the cyberspace experience as dreaming, and its death as normally waking in the real world after dying there

So if no brain damage is involved, why does the brain and body die, and let's come up with something better than, 'because your body makes it real'
 
 
Lurid Archive
16:00 / 15.12.02
Let me get this straight. You want a rigorous explanation of a piece of fictional theorising? And you are willing to believe "anything new and original"? Wouldn't you be better off posting this in the creation?

OR


The nanobots necessary to provide the wet interface inevitably cause electromagnetic disruptions when their closure sequence isn't properly activated. Hence the premature termination of a cyberspace experience causes a quantum cascade event that disrupts brain cell cohesion, effectively terminating the subject. Also, failsafes are vulnerable to the same electromagnetic disturbances, thus rendering them ineffective unless they are implemented at an autonomic biological level. So the truly enlightened can survive a cyber death, but not through a mechanistic processes.
 
 
The Photographer in Blowup
16:08 / 15.12.02
Let me get this straight. You want a rigorous explanation of a piece of fictional theorising? And you are willing to believe "anything new and original"? Wouldn't you be better off posting this in the creation?

Of course not, there is no such thing as living in the cyberspace (hope there will be, though), but i'm looking for a better explanation as to why, in books and movies, people die in the real world when they die in cyberspace - it's always the same answer: 'the body can't live without the mind' and such! this idea hasn't grown up in decades in the scifi genre.

And i don't need a scientific explanation, just a new one, more original - anything will do, just no more Matrix theories, please.
 
 
w1rebaby
16:30 / 15.12.02
Well, it might help to know which concepts of death in cyberspace you're looking for. There are various different possibilities depending on the details.

If your neural interface is deep enough to allow a program access to your autonomic nervous system, or could be hacked to do that, well, it would be pretty easy to kill someone that way. (Bit of a design flaw, though.) I seem to recall that getting hit by black ice in Neuromancer produced a feedback effect that caused the mind to "eat itself"... but that's not death, unless it means you starve to death. In Mona Lisa Overdrive there's a scene where one character gets attacked and his RL limbs start twisting around themselves and nearly break - I've heard of muscle spasms in psychiatric patients breaking their own bones, so this may be possible without direct access to your motor nerves.

Regardless, I think that in any coherent portrayal of cyberspace, if you die there and you die in real life, it's because something else has killed you in real life. It's only a representation after all. It's the place where you are when you're on the phone. If there's an actual reality to cyberspace events outside of how it interacts with the real world then that's a mystical concept and not, IMO, really cyberpunk, more fantasy.
 
 
The Photographer in Blowup
16:46 / 15.12.02
I seem to recall that getting hit by black ice in Neuromancer produced a feedback effect that caused the mind to "eat itself"... but that's not death, unless it means you starve to death. In Mona Lisa Overdrive there's a scene where one character gets attacked and his RL limbs start twisting around themselves and nearly break

Another Neuromancer theory, which in turn was the model for the Matrix theories - can't we scifi fans come up with something new that doesn't involve copying our favourite writers?

In my opinion, people shouldn't die in the real world due to cyberspace death, because there's no reason for that to happen - people shouldn't even die in the cyberspace, as it's a fantasy virtual world where anything can happen, and so death becomes a simply question if willpower
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:59 / 15.12.02
The reason people die in the real world when they die in cyberspace is because it suits the author's purposes that they do so. The whole "body can't live without the mind" is down to sloppy thinking.

If I needed to have people die in real life when they died in cyberspace, I'd say something like: The brain can't tell the difference between the phoney stimuli used to create the Cyberspace experience, so the body shows the same physical reactions to stimuli as if those stimuli were happening in the real world. If you're frightened or exited, your heart beats faster. If your fictional world turns a bit chilly, your real body shivers. If you're in the cyber-Bahamas, your body sweats. If someone stabs you with a sword, you suffer pain. If someone blows your brains out with a Smith & Wesson, you die of shock. Or something. Psychosomatic execution?

Coming Next Week: Why using people as batteries is a load of bollocks and all.
 
 
Lurid Archive
17:30 / 15.12.02
In my opinion, people shouldn't die in the real world due to cyberspace death, because there's no reason for that to happen - L.M. Rosa

So if you want to write a sci-fi story where cyber death doesn't cause meat death, then go ahead. Other writers want to have one follow from the other and thats fair enough too. Not sure what you are looking for.
 
 
w1rebaby
19:16 / 15.12.02
Look, do you want a way to die IRL when you die in cyberspace or not?

Okay, here's one I've not seen. Imagine a cyberspace where, instead of your mind remaining in your body and receiving remote input, you upload your entire mind to the remote system.

There could be very good reasons why you needed to do that. Say we're talking about interstellar net surfing. The lag time would make it impossible to do this real time. Legitimate users would buy storage and processing time on a server where they wanted to go, and hackers would steal it.

Now, if you ever want to return to your body, you will have to overwrite your Local Mind with your Roaming Mind when the Roaming Mind gets back. You'd probably want to entirely suspend or delete your Local Mind, both for plot convenience and also because the Local Mind would probably not want to be deleted once the Roaming Mind returns to make way for these fantastic new experiences, presuming that that would "kill" it. (If the Local Mind is suspended rather than deleted, then that doesn't allow death to take place in this way, so we'll avoid that possibility.)

Possibly your Local Mind has to be deleted because of the technology used to upload it - say, it requires destruction of the configuration to fully read all the details of your mind.

The body would have to remain on life support, either by autonomic nervous system or mechanically.

Obviously, if the Roaming Mind is deleted or damaged, the person will be brain dead. Killing someone in cyberspace would be deleting all copies of their Roaming Mind before they could transfer it back to their body.
 
 
w1rebaby
20:42 / 15.12.02
Or how about this one: cyberspace is not entered electronically. It's "biospace". Data is synthesised into the form of an organism or colony of microorganisms, which is injected into the body of the netrunner, or "host". This organism excretes drugs that cause hallucinations, and mutates according to the interaction between the host's thought processes and its own data-derived structure.

The host reacts to the hallucinations which reacts to his or her reactions, and appears subjectively to be inside the data, as in a typical cyberspace. However, a biospace-generating organism ("datasite"? "simbiote"?) can include elements that generate poisons given the wrong responses. So if you're trying to enter a simbiote without sufficient access rights, you can end up with a very bad trip, permanent brain damage or be killed outright.

I quite like this one.
 
 
The Monkey
04:57 / 16.12.02
When reading Gibson's description of ICE, then Black ICE, I always figured that the former was a hunter program...for while his versions of the Net had many nifty requires-brain-plugs features, the process of hacking still involved data-processing techniques of breaking security and concealing one's real and net-local presence, and the opposition defending by blocking and tracking the hacker. Black ICE, then, not merely allowed security to get a lock on the hacker both in and out of the Net, but created electrical feedback to over-stimulate the brain via the wiring of the deck-to-skull-plug interface and the former's power source...not relying on anything as sophisticated as a targetting a specific brain region, but rather sledge-hammering all of the systems connected to the deck with electricity (which royally fucks up neuronal action potentials). This sort of fit with several characters being wounded or damaged in various ways, but not killed outright, by black ICE: the stochastiticity inherent to ganglion interconnections meant that some fellows got lucky and missed having a spectacularly fatal nerve connection damaged.

Beyond Gibson, the question of why someone would die in cyber space ultimately lies in the two-way-street aspect of the mind-machine interface: the brain "believes" its own sensorial data, so any device, regardless of its delivery mechanics, is designed to provide/simulate new/false data to the brain. Witin this is the inherent risk of communicating signals that relay the brain a sense of false threat...or false safety. So the question is what parts of the brain are "connected up" and how badly can they go wrong.

A rig set simulating visual data probably couldn't kill you, barring the out-right electrocution factor, because the data is flowing in along a very specific ganglion route back to your parietal lobe, etc., where the impulses are processed, interpreted, then sent forward to the frontal cortex to impact planning, memory, etc. Nothing along the ganglion pathway directly effects a life-sustaining system.

Similarly, a simulation of the sensory data of, let's say, a gunshot, wouldn't be fatal as a result of the "false" kinesthetic and pain data: those things about a gunshot don't kill you, the hole in your vital organs and the blood loss do. So unless the "virtual reality" simulation involves some component actually in your blood stream or organs spitting toxins or leaching out oxygen to simulate internal damage, your brain will stay alive (and pants-shitting terrified). So even if your brain feels the pain, etc. of a gut shot, your liver, intestines, and all just keep rolling along: they, inside the body, don't have a shut-down built in...they hammer along with minimal assists from the hypothalamus and the medulla, regardless of what the upper cortex is convinced of. There are schizophrenics with all sorts of dysmorphic concepts about how their body works (or doesn't), but their bodies run just fine. There remains, then, the question of cardiac shock causing death.

The nastiest death I can think of is basically virtual strychnine: if the proposed hacker has implants within the motor cortex (necessary for the planning of volitional movement, and even *thoughts* regarding movements, as would be necessary to move, say, an avatar), imagine disrupting or suppressing the motor impulses that control the diaphragm and rib-muscles, effectively suffocating the subject. Then again, if maiming is more your style, the options really open up. All of those wonderful brain pathways hooked up means the possibility of generating all sorts of horrid neurological problems: dyskinesias, aphagias, choreas, tics, standing tremors, or just good-old fashioned seizures. On the more insidious level, access to the mechanics of the sensorium means the induction of simulated hallucinations, visual-processing maladies such as achromatopsia, or any of the paraseises, and phantom pain.
 
 
grant
15:41 / 16.12.02
I think the idea comes more from the old saw about if you die in your dreams, then you die in real life too.
Wes Craven says he based "Nightmare on Elm Street" on newspaper clippings about a rash of strange deaths in the Philippines, where people were apparently being killed by their own recurring nightmares.
The "scientific" explanation for that is always a dismissive "shock." Couldn't handle the trauma, so they froze up, lethally.
 
 
the king of byblos
12:16 / 14.01.03
hi,
i tend to agree with grant and was going to post to this effect, i think it is- for the purposes of cyberpunk- a dramatic concept too. How can you kill characters and move the plot along if all the person has to do it restart their hard drive and plug back in?
I would assume that in the future real cyber space will put a stop to this- i for one would not cyber jump off the empire state if i was going to have a real heart attack! This reminds me of the Christopher Walken film with the machine for recording memories [suggestions please]where the bloke shags himself to death playing the recording over and over again, i can't think of any ISP wanting that to happen;-)
 
 
The Photographer in Blowup
17:37 / 14.01.03
hi,
i tend to agree with grant and was going to post to this effect, i think it is- for the purposes of cyberpunk- a dramatic concept too. How can you kill characters and move the plot along if all the person has to do it restart their hard drive and plug back in?


How about killing them in the real world? It would be a novelty in a sci-fi book: with so much technology at one's disposal, only to still get killed in the old-fashioned way; it's something i would never expect in a sci-fi dealing with cyberspace, and a major irony in a way: about how fragile science is and all that stuff.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
15:59 / 15.01.03
Ooh, this is an interesting one. I have to second (third now, I suppose) grant's instinct that it is related to the idea that if you die in dream, you really die (which is why the corollary is that if you are about to die in a dream you generally wake up before the crucial moment). And then of course there's the quite legitimate possibility of scaring or shocking someone to death while they are in the virtual environment - if your character has a weak heart this would definitely be a pretty easy way to do them in.

But of course another old cliche of recnt scifi and cyberpunk is that whe you die IRL, you don't really die because of course you just copy your consciousness onto a hard drive, disk or area of cyberspace somwhere and become a sort of ghost in the machine.

I can't tell you the number of times I've encountered this dull, dull cop-out after the death of a major character in a sci-fi novel. It's almost as canon and unimaginative as making the Three Laws of Robotics a plot point. What might have been an interesting and original thing to do (i.e. kill off the hero/heroine halfway through) is turned into a big fiddle, deceiving the reader with surprising hir. Lazy bastards ... ohh, it riles me ... anyway, that's a bit off topic. It's just that the reverse also seems to be true (when you die in one environment you DON'T necessarly die in the other).

Having said that, can't think of a easier time or place to kill someone IRL than when they're blind, deaf and helpless, sitting in a chair/rubber cage/saline bath, hooked up to their computer and surfing the net ....
 
 
The Photographer in Blowup
21:36 / 15.01.03
Since we're in the Creation forum, and after reading Whisky's post, how about we start thinking about new ideas for what happens to a human after they die in the internet, or how to prevent them from dying.

In my opinion, anyone intelligent enough to projetc one's conscience into the internet, should have a sort of fail-safe plan to stop death from occuring: i see it like a sort of program that erases the traumatic memory of dying the moment it happens - so the person may die in the internet, but without memory of the shock, the body can't duplicate the effect - there's no mind/body connection at all.

Any other ideas?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:38 / 15.01.03
But of course another old cliche of recnt scifi and cyberpunk is that whe you die IRL, you don't really die because of course you just copy your consciousness onto a hard drive, disk or area of cyberspace somwhere and become a sort of ghost in the machine.

Optimus Prime. Optimus Prime, I tell you. Motherfucker decides to sacrifice himself because he had to kill civilians in a goddamn computer game, there's nothing more to do than to leave the Earth for the cockroaches. And Ultra Magnus.

WP's point is a good one, and has been used a few times (in 2000AD, at least once, and IIRC the film of Max Headroom); easiest way to kill somebody in Cyberspace is to track their location and send the boys round.
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
22:44 / 15.01.03
one at a time
Quote How about killing them in the real world? It would be a novelty in a sci-fi book: with so much technology at one's disposal, only to still get killed in the old-fashioned way; it's something i would never expect in a sci-fi dealing with cyberspace, and a major irony in a way: about how fragile science is and all that stuff.

in many cyber puck style stories, the ice keeps you logged in by either jamming your motor reflexes or denial of servicing you so you are trapped in cyberspace, hence the need to never go in alone. While you are trapped they then track you down and kill you by tracing your hacking signal thing...

Now, on to how someone could avoid death in cyberspace.

Why not wetwire a hampster or something, use it like a firewall?
you----computer---hampster---internet

see, you hacking Giganticorp and they attack, sending parkinsons disease down the pipe. Like a miner with a canary, when the hampster develops a twitch, you log out.

hmmm
 
 
mixmage
03:26 / 16.01.03
king of byblos: Brainstorm.

L.M. Rosa: a sort of program that erases the traumatic memory of dying the moment it happens Thanks for that one!

Luckily, I just installed a "Ragged Robin Unit" into my rig... well, I think I did. About 5 minutes ago.

Elijah: I like it. I'm gonna fit a Hamtaro v.2.3 tomorrow.
 
 
The Monkey
03:42 / 16.01.03
Elijah - the Hamtaro firewall is a brilliant idea. Clever and disturbing and something that should totally be thrown into a cyberpunk piece.
 
 
Unravelling
02:54 / 04.03.03
VR death works because Psychic reality is Reality. Like pointing the bone, and other documented 'psychosomatic' death phenomena.
So place the firewalls inside your mind.
 
  
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