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Turkey and EU

yawn - thing's buddy

12:01 / 13.12.02

should Turkey be permitted to join the EU?

should Turkey bother when it's clear (central) Europe doesn't want them to join?

Wouldn't it be stronger in a Pan-Turkic Federation now that all the turkic ex-soviet republics have shitloads of oil?

With the 'war against terrorism' here to stay, would Turkey be better outside or inside Europe?

Human Rights?

Loadsa muslims? (gasp)

big economy (potentially the biggest in the enlarged Europe)?

'different' culture?

Some contradictions:

they are in NATO
they play in UEFA (European)football tournaments
The 'different' Turkish culture has been within Europe (specifically the Balkans) for nealy 1000 years.
they have been in the Eurovision song contest for donkeys (anyone remember 'Petrol'?)
Turkey has resettled evicted muslims from Bulgaria in 1989, Yugoslavians during the Balkan Wars of the 90's, Kurds from Iraq after Desert Storm - basically sweeping up the human detritus after European and American Led wars.

And when Giscard Destain (can't spell his name, sorry) say's it has a 'different culture' what exactly is he afaid of?

That the mythical 'mono-european' culture is so weak it will be destroyed and converted by this 'different' culture?

lotsa questions.

any answers?

15:02 / 13.12.02

I was going totally going to start a thread on this. Not much time at the mo but quickly - I think this could entirely change the direction of European integration. Probably for the better.

Basically all deepening/widening of the EU up to now has been the result of economic rather than political pressure. If Turkey does get in then I think this will be purely political and could set a very good precedent.

Obviously, it would be great to have a non-christian state. Potential to build bridges, heal rifts and underline secularity.

The risk is that welcoming a poor country with a population the size of Germany could undermine the whole European project. I can imagine there would be changes in economic policies to avoid huge subsidies and this could kick things off in a Thatcher/Gaullist economic trading area rather than a political social union.

It is going to happen sooner or later. It has great potential...to go one of two ways.

16:37 / 13.12.02

Seems to me the biggest questions about Turkey is their human rights record. Talks about joinging the EU could be used to push Turkey on this issue and their treatment of the Kurds.

In addition, is the upcomming enlargement a good idea? I think it is too big, too fast. The EU has so many problems that need to be worked out between the member states that widdening at such a rate could be problimatic to its structure. This is also comming from a US perspective, just to let ya know.
Love to hear what you think.

17:07 / 22.05.07

Article on tensions in Turkey

Two simmering problems threaten to boil over in Turkey this summer with greater international consequences than ever before.

First is the relationship between the Islamic religion and the state that Mustafa Kemal Ataturk founded in 1923 and whose secular nature the army has protected ever since. Second is the raids against Turkish troops by terrorists from Turkey's minority Kurdish population who are now camped across the border in Iraq.

Part of the reaction can be attributed to the radical secularism of Turkey's traditional social and economic elite. Despite Erdogan's record of moderation, some of the radical secularists claim the AKP has a "secret agenda" to impose harsh Islamic constraints on Turkish life once it has amassed monopoly power. But their reaction hardly accounts for the outpouring of protest from a broad segment of the society.

More significantly, women played a key role in the demonstrations. As the most liberated women in the Islamic world, active in business, culture and politics, Turkish women have a lot to lose. When they contemplate greater Islamic influence on their public lives, the specter on their minds is neighboring Iran, once cosmopolitan and now theocratic.

Shit yeah I'd be marching too. Would admittance to the EU help protect secular rights?

11:36 / 24.05.07

It´s doubtful that Turkey will ever become a member of the EU for various reasons:

Most EU members probably would not like the EU to have Iran, Iraq and Syria as direct neighbours. Turkey and Syria have strained relations, Turkey threatened Syria with war in the late nineties.

Only 3% of Turkey are European territory.

The turkish government still denies the armenian genocide, the EU acknowledges it.

Since 1960 there have been three coup d'états by the military. 1997 was the last military intervention, when they made the government resign. And there was a recent threat by the military to again intervene in political matters.

It would also be very expensive. The EU commission estimates the costs to be 16.5 - 27.5 billion € a year.

Cyprus is a EU member and has a very troubled relationship with Turkey. Turkey almost started a war against Cyprus in the midnineties and has a large number of soldiers on the northern part of the island. With that atttude towards a member of the EU, the EU will most certainly not have Turkey as a member.

Here´s a wikilink for this topic.

unheimlich manoeuvre

23:17 / 25.05.07

Only 3% of Turkey are European territory.

Europe has political and historical boundaries rather than a geographical one. Turkey like Britain and Germany is in Eurasia.

The turkish government still denies the armenian genocide, the EU acknowledges it.

Every former colonial power has a bloody past. See Late Victorian Holocausts by Mike Davis for a good example of British denial.

Since 1960 there have been three coup d'états by the military. 1997 was the last military intervention, when they made the government resign. And there was a recent threat by the military to again intervene in political matters.

Greece was ruled by a military junta 1967-1974. Also see the strategy of tension in Italy from the 60's through to the 80's. Neither of these stopped their entry into the EU.

...

Ideologically I have issues with faceless bureaucracy and super-states but if it stops wars, and in a small corner of Eurasia it has been fairly peaceful recently, then I am all for it.

10:06 / 26.05.07

Europe has political and historical boundaries rather than a geographical one. Turkey like Britain and Germany is in Eurasia.

You're not wrong - Cyprus being a case in point - but Russia for example is a long way from being considered for full membership. Although that is probably more of an economic or diplomatic (?) case than a geographical one.

Greece was ruled by a military junta 1967-1974. Also see the strategy of tension in Italy from the 60's through to the 80's. Neither of these stopped their entry into the EU.

That's a little misleading, isn't it? Greece didn't join until the early '80s, and Italy was a founding member in the '50s. Arguably the end of the dictatorships in Greece, Spain and Portugal was a factor in their accession. Similarly the end of the communist regimes was a condition for the accession of the eastern European and Balkan blocks.

The tricky situation in Turkey is that the military is a defender of secularism, giving rise to a catch 22 situation with regard to the Copenhagen criteria. I'm not sure how explicit the secularism, or separation of church and state requirements are.

unheimlich manoeuvre

23:31 / 26.05.07

That's a little misleading, isn't it? Greece didn't join until the early '80s, and Italy was a founding member in the '50s. Arguably the end of the dictatorships in Greece, Spain and Portugal was a factor in their accession. Similarly the end of the communist regimes was a condition for the accession of the eastern European and Balkan blocks.

No you're right. The end of the dictatorship was a prerequisite to ascension. Although the situation in Italy, while a member of a precursor to the EU, during the strategy of tension, confuses the hell out of me.

The tricky situation in Turkey is that the military is a defender of secularism, giving rise to a catch 22 situation with regard to the Copenhagen criteria. I'm not sure how explicit the secularism, or separation of church and state requirements are.

I don't think it's impossible to imagine Turkey, Ukraine, Belarus, Russia, Moldova and Iran as part of an enlarged Eurasian Union. Any tricky situation is surmountable with sufficient political will. The European constitution being a good example.