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noooo fu-ture for you

 
 
Tamayyurt
20:15 / 17.08.01
I was watching TV in a rare state of depression and I noticed something... We've hit a wall!
Basically, I saw a commercial for that new Star Trek Series "enterprise" and then my mind clicked to the new Star Wars movie "Attack of the Clones" and I thought, "wow, how scary. Even our science fiction is afraid to look forward." What kinda world do we live in where the two pinnacels of neophile dork-dom are going retro? And I have to ask you bright Barbelith boys and girls... why? Why this new trend? This has to be a symptom of a bigger problem. Why are even the geeks afraid of the future?

This'll make a great essay for the zine...anybody with a few answers want it?
 
 
Rollo Kim, on location
20:29 / 17.08.01
I'm half way through an article about how most science fiction never actually does boldly go beyond anywhere. I wonder wether it's simply that there MUST be people out there working on some really new ideas - but they don't get a look in.

I'm constantly disappointed by how out-of-date our ideas of possible futures really are, the ongoing obsession with God and War...and how they always seem to be caught up in the same old 18th Century notion of what 'good' and 'evil' are, what God is.
 
 
SMS
09:17 / 18.08.01
The cultural mind doesn't know how to make Star Wars/Star Trek movies right now. In some ways this is a reflection of a good economy. I don't demand the clean, crisp sci-fi future, because I'm living in it.

Instead, it makes the Invisibles, the Matrix, Crouching Tiger fantasy movies. Soon, you'll find some people still trying to make this genre and it won't feel right. No one in the world will know how to make them anymore, because they are made from our world of '01.
 
 
Ganesh
09:17 / 18.08.01
Star Trek and Star Wars aren't science-fiction; not in the 'mind-expanding, sense of wonder' way, anyway. I think of them more as space opera.
 
 
Molly Shortcake
09:17 / 18.08.01
Science fiction as we know it has dissapeared. We're living in it, something else is taking it's place.

I'm really big on hyperreal sci-fi. Aeon Flux and Serial Experiments Lain are absolutely incredible.

Star Treks only redeaming quality is the Borg.

Better Than I could put it:
quote: Baudrillard notes that there are three orders of simulcra. There is the simulcra of the natural, which is "harmonious, optimistic...[it]aims for the resitution or ideal institution of nature made in God's image." The utopian-imaginary, the romantic dream, belongs to this order of simulcra. Next, there is the simulcra of the productive, which is "founded on energy, force, its materilization by the machine and in the whole system of production." Classical science fiction is the imaginary that corresponds to this category in that it uses the material, "the real," of our world to construct imaginary worlds. The third simulcra is simulcra of simulation, which is "founded on information..the cybernetic...[it is] hyperreality." Baudrillard argues that this category of simulcra nullifies classical science fiction, renders it impossible, because the models, meaning the realms of simulation, hyperreality, no longer constitue the imaginary of utopian transendance or science fiction's projected build-up of a world with elements of the real--no longer is the imaginary constituted in relation to the real. Rather, the models anticipate the real and "leave no room for imaginary transendance." Thus,in the age of the "cyberkinetic and hyperreal," the real becomes a utopia that "can only be dreamnt of" and science fiction becomes obsolete in its task of multiplying onto the real possiblities through imaginary projections. Science fiction, in the classical sense, can only construct past worlds, get at truths retrospectively; it can no longer anticipate what will be real because of the models of the simulcra have beat it to the punch. This is exemplified by the contention that man, having mapped out the real of earth and mapping out the real of space, converts the real into the hypperreal of simulation. The science fiction of imagination needs open territory, extra "real" space to speculate on and create its worlds, but the hyperreal has already monopolized such space, rendering the world of science fiction obsolete. In short, science fiction can "no longer...fabricate the unreal from the real." Thus, a new type of science fiction must arise. This science fiction will take models of simulation and attempt to make them feel real, "to make the real fiction" since, oddly enough, "it is the real that has disappeared from our lives" in the postmodern age of hyperreality. Ultimately, Baudrillard concludes that the old order of science fiction can still be produced, but only the new order as described by himself can "truly interest" postmodern man.

Check out The Future of the Past.

[ 20-08-2001: Message edited by: Ice Honkey/Grim Rapper ]
 
 
Molly Shortcake
23:17 / 18.08.01
Most peoples concept of sci-fi is all twisted and dependent on classical notions. Hence most of what I would argue as sci-fi is classified as something else. Want to see some real sci-fi? Go watch Blade. Can anybody tell me why?

[ 19-08-2001: Message edited by: Ice Honkey/Grim Rapper ]
 
 
grant
14:54 / 20.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Kriztalyne:
more to the point did you hear that Disney have replaced Tomorrowland with a deliberately old-fashioned Tomorrowland?


It's gorgeous. As far as Disney goes....

I think part of this has to do with the Year 2000 -- we're now living in the future, and it's not the future we thought it would be.
 
 
Molly Shortcake
03:22 / 21.08.01
A question. In order to be classified as sci-fi does a piece have to overtly explain itself in scientific terms? Can it be metaphoric? Rely on outside theory even?

Theoretically, high technology is indistinguishable from magic. All technology was once considered magic. Taken to extreams, the lines between sci-fi, fantasy and horror are all blured.

Hellraiser is certainly about aliens, the puzzle box is obviously a piece of technology - why shouldn't it be considered a sci-fi film?

[ 21-08-2001: Message edited by: Ice Honkey/Grim Rapper ]
 
 
Mystery Gypt
03:58 / 21.08.01
well, people aren't writing a lot of epic poetry about warfare in dactylic hexameter either, and mystery plays sort of dribbled out, say, 500 years ago.

literarry forms have a lifespan, amd a hundred and twenty years was a whole lot of plenty for science fiction, perhaps.
 
 
Molly Shortcake
18:55 / 21.08.01
Ok impulsivelad, you've got me. Been itching to organize this stuff in my head anyways...

Prolly gonna take me a bit to research/write properly, gonna be a series. Don't expect anything for at least a month, mabey two, depending on personal matters.
 
 
Tamayyurt
00:11 / 22.08.01
That's cool. Take your time. I'm just glad I got you as obssesed about it as I was.

And you're answers are helping, thanks.

quote:literarry forms have a lifespan, and a hundred and twenty years was a whole lot of plenty for science fiction, perhaps. Are you trying to make me cry?
 
 
the Fool
00:33 / 22.08.01
quote:Originally posted by grant:
I think part of this has to do with the Year 2000 -- we're now living in the future, and it's not the future we thought it would be.


But it is the future. We are surrounded by things that are futuristic. We're all using something pretty futuristic to have this conversation. So the future is replacing now. Now replaces the future. Now then becomes the past and we being to dream anew...
 
 
reidcourchie
10:13 / 22.08.01
This has been going on for a while though. Science Fiction has not been set in the future but set in the present only worse (Blade Runner?).

New series and films aside both the franchises mentioned have always done this. Star Trek is set in the past and uses some very old techniques to tell it's stories and I believe Lucas set out to show an archaic hi-tech society. In Star Trek whilst arguable attempts were made to show the effects of high technology and the progression of culture the Klingons are Vikings, the Romulans Romans and the Bjorians seem to share a lot of ideas with Indian myth/religion/mysticism. We've always plumbed the past/present for our ideas of the future as a point of refrence.

I think JG Ballard said something along the lines of a science fiction writer's job is not to predict the future but rather to warn about it. Of course I may have got that completely wrong.
 
 
Mystery Gypt
16:41 / 22.08.01
quote:Originally posted by impulsivelad:
Are you trying to make me cry?


think of it as a very painful birth -- a tragic transformation, which begins something brand new... like being left by your girlfriend only to discover there's whole part's of life you never had a chance to see...

on a side note, have you read You Bright And Risen Angels, by William Vollman? there's some future of sci-fi for you!
 
 
Tamayyurt
23:22 / 22.08.01
seeing as, like the slut ex-girlfriend, you've left me with nothing... I'll check it out.

I need hope. What else out there do you see as the cutting edge future of sci-fi?
 
 
Ria
14:53 / 23.08.01
Australian writers have had a lot of attention lately. Nalo Hopkinson who lives in Canada (I think!) versus the US and comes from Carribean ancestry has had some attention lately and this may show where the genre may go.

and as far as film I think that people may start make some good-great-etc. sf indy films on digital video.

as far as Vollmann this book belongs to the slipstream genre/sub-genre/non-genre... hybrid of experimental and weird fiction with sf themes and imagery though less talked about now than say five years ago. GM's prose work would belong to this category. it has replaced genre sf in my heart.

as far as Vollmmann
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
18:43 / 23.08.01
I don't think that by citing the conservative, repetitive nature of the two most lucrative sci-fi franchises in the world is indicitive of a wholesale decline in the genre. Star Wars and Star Trek are about the money they rake in more than they are about serious fiction. I don't think that should come as any surprise.

I think maybe a bit of the inertia you're sensing on an overall level may have something to do with how as a society, western culture is actually LIVING in the future that it had imagined for itself, and we haven't as a collective whole figured out what the next future is supposed to be yet.

[ 23-08-2001: Message edited by: FLUX = Negasonic Teenage Warhead ]
 
 
Ria
22:21 / 23.08.01
I agree with a little bit of modification... we seem lacking a viable "consensus future".

(theory taken from some writer... I forget who...)

circa 1980 sf didn't go for predicting the near future... the future which readers would expect to live to see... other than the post-nuclear/eco-disaster low-tech dystopia one or failing this the present with gimicks both of which seemed a little easy.

then came cyberpunk (by which I do not mean the Mad Max movies which tended to go for the low-tech dystopia scenario). we have lived with cyberpunk. lived through it and have not a consensus future with which to replace it.

or we have already used up our extrapolated early '80's. haven't moved on to our extrapolated 2001.

maybe some writers have done a good job of it, I don't know, haven't read recent prose sf in a while... none though have worked up such a scenario and done it in such style that its visionary and literary qualities attract notice.

in the case of Gibson it did take a few years between the short stories he had written originally and that first novel. and compatriots like John Shirley never did get equal recognition. (Bruce Sterling's work did not take place in the near future.)

postscript to above: since writing the above I remembered that Bruce Sterling's Islands in the Net does happen in the near future.

[ 24-08-2001: Message edited by: Kriztalyne ]
 
 
Aemon Reatha
03:27 / 24.08.01
I agree with the concept of consensus reality being important to the fictions (or fictons) we create. Our present is a reality that was achieved by consensus, so if we create any dreams about the future we must collectively agree on how it will take shape. There may be some amazing speculative fiction out there already, but if it just doesn't fit in with the general understanding of how we interact with the cosmos, then our minds won't understand it.

As much as I love the Star Wars storyline (early childhood imprinting), it's hard to think of it as sci-fi for the very reason that it starts with the phrase: "A long time ago..." It's ancient history! These people just had technology that was called magic in a corresponding time in our own history.

Most sci-fi (or as Tim Leary called it, Psy-Phi) is not about the future, it's just set in the future. All of the conflicts and antinomies are about our present day concerns, dressed up with some techno to give the characters a bit of a Deus Ex Machina way of solving their problems. Even "The Matrix" could easily be taken as a model of our own society, an allegory about our sleeping consciousness.

Sci-fi author Spider Robinson wrote an article during the Y2K craze about what the possible Y3K human would be like, and he suggested that humanity would be unrecognizable. Immortal, infinitely intelligent, space travelers able to change gender or species at will, just for starters. Trying to identify with characters like these would be like trying to identify with, well, aliens, and most of the human populace is not ready for that. Maybe a lot of the people on this list are ready for such speculation, but the general TV watching and movie buying public sure isn't.

Why aren't the characters in Star Trek immortal, or at least have incredible longevity? Doctors are already predicting that the longevity code in our cells will be cracked within the next ten years! How do we start writing stories about characters who don't fear death? Can we identify with such speculation, until we have achieved it?

Talk to you in five hundred years, after you've had a good think...
 
 
Ria
17:50 / 24.08.01
slight rebuttal or clarification... I alluded to consensus futures not consensus reality. consensus future did not exist until I invented it. by definition consensus futures exist in multiple (we don't know the future).

the Rapture/Apocalypse one seems like that exists for a lot of people as I forgot to mention.

not for mainstream genre fiction writers though. you also have the Singularity though most writers haven't had the courage to approach that one in fiction.

two poles here: a very predicable future. a very unpredictable future.

ummm. yes. in theory the people in ST could save body patterns of everyone in the ship (or wherever) once a day and materialize their 'back-up' if they die. (TNG showed that you could duplicate people 'n' stuff.)

now I don't think they would go for a series set in a post-human future. the production people would get confused... how to keep it consistent, not break the laws of drama in TVland, etc. if producers could even get their mind around what posthuman meant. (as if we can, really!)

but again TNG showed glimpses like when Q would turn into an Egyptian icon and so forth which he did in the earlier episodes when he acted more alien, less cuddly. but I digress.
 
 
Frances Farmer
18:31 / 24.08.01
Just some thoughts, here.

I never interpreted sci-fi as futuristic drama. It always seemed, to me, to be a form of social commentary. I liked the comments about the Deux Ex Machina approach.

Speculative rant :

Science Fiction, by it's very name, implies a fictive universe within an understandable scientific framework. In other words, it's supposed to be speculative, in a sense, but not too much so - we ought to be able to picture it. The technology so often employed as the costumed god resolving the problems is, in science fiction, used equally often to introduce the dilemma. It's a way of fast-forwarding a present social trend, anxiety, hope, and viewing a speculation at potential manifestations. It let's us observe an array of possible futures ; some more likely than others. Even when making inference to equivelent technology levels on other planets, or high technology in our own past, the primary point is to exemplify a single emotional response or social trend. 1984 employed what was then a far-advanced technology, not so much to make a point about the technology (science) itself, but more to make a point about the threat of oligarchy, and possibly warring human proclivities for a safe, controlled environment, and at the same time, an unsafe, chaotic, and uncontrollable environment. 1984 made some suggestions as to what could occur if we go too far with a given proclivity - a safe, controlled environment. Likewise, PKD, considered a Science Fiction author, oftentimes employs virtually no futuristic, or even necessarily scientific, devices to introduce his concepts or dilemmas. But, the thread runs through here, too : PKD is exploring. "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" employed a god on a crane (the androids), but "VALIS" only partially did (The music technologies, the satellite). "The Man In The High Castle" is Science Fiction solely on the weight of exploring an alternate reality that was at the time present day. Really, I think the trait that creates good Science Fiction creates good music, good painting, and good movies. It's all the same primordial stuff, the same introspection and exploration. I think our culture is currently in a waning state as concerns this 'Stuff of Creativity'. It's temporary. There will be a burst of the bubble. The next five years will involve an intense upswing - perhaps more intense than anything we've seen in our lifetimes. That's conjecture, sure ; but I can feel it, and rationalise it, and picture it, and I'm not the only one. Science fiction is dying - the creative juices are ebbing. Soon, they will flow. In many pagan myth cycles, of paramount importance is the winter. The goddess rests while the god watches over the barren earth. Without this rest, we could not have a spring, where that which has grown in the womb, assisted by the rest of the goddess, is born. This doesn't mean that nothing happens during our proverbial winter - but rather that this is the time for retread. Soon will come the time for an explotion of novelty.

Whoa. Sorry. It's the endorphins again.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
19:39 / 24.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Ice Honkey/Grim Rapper:
Go watch Blade. Can anybody tell me why?

[ 19-08-2001: Message edited by: Ice Honkey/Grim Rapper ]


Aside from the posthumanist vibe, I have no clue. Elucidate oh Grim Rapper?
 
 
Molly Shortcake
19:47 / 24.08.01
It's the Matrix w/vampires instead of machines. The simularities are pretty prevalant, I'm not sure how much is appropiated or coincidence.

The political aspects in Blade are all subtextual while the matrix beats you over the head with gnostic philosophy. Just wanted to see if anyone else had noticed.


[ 24-08-2001: Message edited by: Ice Honkey/Grim Rapper ]
 
 
Molly Shortcake
20:38 / 24.08.01
Intrestingly enough...

quote:Goyer points out that unlike many action movies, ''Blade 2'' is no slapdash afterthought. The first film was intended to be part of a trilogy; hints of future plot twists were well established in the original. ''I've always had two other stories I wanted to tell,'' he says. ''We're building on the first one.''
 
 
wanderingstar
17:25 / 25.08.01
book of interest:

The Dreams Our Stuff Is Made Of
by Thomas M. Disch

quote:
Dress everyone in suits instead of pajamas. and it's clear that the Starship Enterprise is actually an office disguised as the Future. What other future, after all, is a likelier destination for most of the younger viewers who will graduate to the Enterprise from schoolrooms taht are also visual analogs to the show's sets?
Finally, with respect to its formulaic plots, in which the little beehive of the Enterprise confronts, each week, some new variety of non-pajama-wearing misfits or aliens, Star Trek is offering its viewers essentially the same parables of success-though-team-effort that can be found on such later workplace-centered sitcoms as The Mary Tyler Moore Show and Designing Women. And in this respect, Star Trek did boldly go where no such TV series had gone before in being among the first TV venues to show how to behave in an environment--the office or the schoolroom--where diffences of gender and race have been declared officially invisible. Before political correctness or multiculturalism had become debating topics, Star Trek was their prophet.
...In Raben and Cohen's accounting (authors of Boldly Live As You've Never Lived Before), the Enterprise is nothing less than a utopia, an ideal social environment to be given serious consideration as a blueprint for a future America that would be one smoothly running military operation without conflict between rich and poor, male and female, black and white. These ideals weren't preached by the show's scriptwriters; they were shown as a fait acompli, and one vividly at odds with the real circumstances of their era, when protest agaisnt the Vietnam War was at its height, when Martin Luther King, Jr. had just been murdered, when feminists had banded together to form NOW and press for the ill-fated equal rights amendment.


Perhaps not exactly what you were talking about, but an interesting read anyway. It covers a range of topics, from Edgar Allen Poe to the atomic bomb to a recipe for lemon pudding. This is the same guy who wrote The Brave Little Toaster, which makes him that much cooler.
 
 
netbanshee
23:03 / 25.08.01
I agree with the sci-fi = social commentary bit...its just that the concepts of alienation / integration due to some product of imagination, society, technology, whatever...don't generally hit as hard as they used to. New isn't as new as it used to be.

One big cycle of many renewing ones...but when the inner cycles get smaller and more defined its easier to see them at a glance, although maybe not as intricately. Especially with technology at the fingertips today.

I have a feeling that sci-fi will get more tribal and more self-referential as the levels of meaning get deeper and more defined. It'll be harder to connect to the concepts in it, if you're not up on the next thing. It's like if the Matrix dropped the Hollywood image, brought in "real" alien references...like Hellraiser, etc., and had a very realistic tech edge like sitting in a governement computer reasearch facility. It'll end up being more prosumer than consumer. Maybe the ideas will be difficult for everyone to grasp, but for those who get it, it'll redefine the space they think in.

But this of course is only one little way to think about it.
 
 
Ria
17:18 / 27.08.01
quote:book of interest:

The Dreams Our Stuff Is Made Of
by Thomas M. Disch

It covers a range of topics, from Edgar Allen Poe to the atomic bomb to a recipe for lemon pudding.


it subsumes everything from Ballard and Burroughs to media sf together as if under one homogenous mass... oh and UFO's too. confirming the popular belief that they all belong together. when they don't.
 
 
PatrickMM
03:53 / 19.04.06
I'm bringing this one back because we're now five years in the future, and I think the issues discussed here are still very relevant.

I'm constantly disappointed by how out-of-date our ideas of possible futures really are, the ongoing obsession with God and War...and how they always seem to be caught up in the same old 18th Century notion of what 'good' and 'evil' are, what God is.

I found this interesting in light of Battlestar Galactica, which is one of the best sci-fi works I've seen in a long time, and is almost exclusively concerned with God and war. The thing about any piece of genre fiction is that it's usually designed to be a comment on the world in which its made. So, Buffy uses horror conventions to show that high school really is hell, while Battlestar constructs a future scenario to comment on our post 9/11 world.

I think this is a much more effective way of critiuqing society than by looking into the past. Battlestar Galactica is a much more relevant and exciting look at contemporary politics than something like Good Night or Good Luck, which was praised for its relevance. The reason is that genre liberates you from accountability. This can potentially cause problems, but generally speaking, it means a freedom to address issues without worrying about offending people. The really bad sci-fi films are usually the ones that have no basis in an emotional reality and end up just being a bunch of random future ideas.

However, I can see the point that sci-fi has become backwards looking. For me, the quintessential science fiction work is 2001, a film that chronicles the entire history of humanity and presents a vision of the future that is awe inspiring to this day, despite being nearly forty years old. But, I think what's undermined films like this is that future technology hasn't changed that much about the world we see. There's no flying cars of moonbases, the biggest changes have been on the micro level, and the internet has completely revolutionized the way we live in our lives in the span of ten years.

But, it's difficult to do movies about the net because it's inherently uncinematic. There's no majesty in a computer chip the size of an atom the way there is in a starship. Cyberpunk grew out of the net, but for visual media at least, the net doesn't provide the sort of vast changes that make good stories.

However, I am really looking forward to The Fountain, a film that seems to be returning sci-fi to its philosophical roots, rather than using the sci-fi as an excuse for some new kind of action sequence.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
11:39 / 22.04.06
Can anyone firm up a rumour I've heard that the next Star Trek movie currently in production is going to be a 'young Kirk and Spock' movie, based on their days at the academy?
 
 
Benny the Ball
17:11 / 22.04.06
I read something about that today - JJ Abrahams or some TV top writer is involved, and yeah, the plan is to go and do the adventures of the young Enterprise crew.

So, not a great idea, but who would you cast as a young Kirk, Spock, Bones etc...
 
 
Dead Megatron
19:50 / 22.04.06
Yeah, I read about it today at scifi.com

A young Spock + Kirk? Wow, that's [activate sacartic mode] sooooo creative. I only wonder who's gonna play them.


If it were up to me to make a new Star Trek flick, I'd fast foward it an extra thousand years into the future and make a movie about extreme trans-humanism (tantative title: Enterprise Q, or Enterprise X, or Enterprise Zed, or Enterpise Omega... you get the idea), but the budget would sky rocket at warp 9.9...
 
 
Benny the Ball
05:07 / 23.04.06
I'd set it in the 1950's, and call it Star Trek: Some day son, some day...
 
 
Mystery Gypt
14:27 / 25.04.06
maybe this is just an aside or a non-starter, but i think it's really interesting that this thread was originally cooking in august '01, right before 9/11. that last gasp of the 90s era, when people felt that idea about "we are living in the shiny future, yay!" then the thread dies what, 10 days before and everyone forgets about it for a while for obvious reasons. the thread itself is like a time capsule from a certain time, which is cool.

as is said right above, the best sci-fi around (battlestar) is really about the present. i wonder if there are cultural conditions that make truly visionary sci-fi more likely, or if perhaps its a very rare filmmaker that's willing to go beyond the future=present approach.

my suggestion from 5 years ago still stands, that maybe the genre has exceded its eleasticity, becoming at least a hybrid (ie "west wing in space"). maybe there is something burbling under the surfaces of genre that we don't quite recognize yet -- some movies coming out of Japan and Korean are maybe post-scifi, and david cronenberg, who used to make some very special genre movies has moved on to something else. maybe people just aren't psychedelic enough these days?
 
  
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