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Underground > Comic Books >

Changing nature of comics

  
  

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some guy
12:38 / 15.12.02
Anyone looking to reach "the largest group possible" should immediately ditch the comic medium. God, this whole bit is just silly. More people watch television than read books, should historians give up writing and work for The History Channel?

It's not silly, because "journalism" carries with it an implicit value - that of spreading information. My question isn't Can journalism be done in comics but rather should it, specifically with regards to the mainstream perception of comics and the pathetic lack of readership.

Is the purpose of Palestine to be good journalism and reach a lot of people, or is it to garner a lot of awards in a niche industry for soothing our fragile egos by cooing "Look, comics can be grown up, too?" If it's the latter, it has succeeded; if it's the former, it has failed.

We could have the same discussion about clay. I'm sure it could be used as a medium for journalism, but would it be effective?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:49 / 15.12.02
Oh come on, Lawrence. Let's face it - if Sacco made a low budget documentary about Palestine, about the same number of people would have seen it. There's very few people who are into hard documentary films these days.

Joe Sacco is a cartoonist. He decided to tell his story though comics, because that's what he knew best. What's wrong with that? More people should see that comics can do more than what most people think, and having things like Palestine around is a great step in changing the public perception of comics, in a very small but significant way.
 
 
some guy
14:31 / 15.12.02
Oh come on, Lawrence. Let's face it - if Sacco made a low budget documentary about Palestine, about the same number of people would have seen it. There's very few people who are into hard documentary films these days.

Provided it was a hard documentary film, and not a feature on CNN or Frontline or something, it still would have been seen by far more people than the few thousand who've read the comic.

Joe Sacco is a cartoonist. He decided to tell his story though comics, because that's what he knew best. What's wrong with that?

Nothing, if his view of journalism means "bringing the story to the smallest possible group."

More people should see that comics can do more than what most people think, and having things like Palestine around is a great step in changing the public perception of comics, in a very small but significant way.

Exactly my point. Palestine is more important to comics than it is to journalism. The question is still a valid one - is comics a good medium for journalism? Based on readership figures etc. the answer has to be no. Your defense has nothing to do with the goals of journalism and everything to do with propping up comics as a medium.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:20 / 15.12.02
Provided it was a hard documentary film, and not a feature on CNN or Frontline or something, it still would have been seen by far more people than the few thousand who've read the comic.

Simple question: How?
 
 
some guy
15:29 / 15.12.02
Simple question: How?

Because even the documentary circuit offers more viewers than the the 10,000 or so readers exposed to the top-selling indie comics.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
16:15 / 15.12.02
When do we young 'lithers make the evolutionary leap from board to comics?

When we start writing and/or drawing them. It's really that simple. You can sit around and thrash out manifestoes and work out where your former heroes have gone wrong all you like - and I've done it - but you "make the evolutionary leap... to comics" when you start producing them.

For what it's worth, I also think it's a little strange to be complaining that there hasn't been anything as good as From Hell published "recently" - how many years ago did the first collected edition of that work come out?

Maybe I've just not been into comics for long enough, but I doubt it - I mean, I doubt my opinion of the vast majority of stuff out there is any higher than anyone's, but the best stuff seems as good if not better than what's come before it. Seriously, Pope's 100% - I'm not sure I've ever read something that delivered as much of what I want from a comic... Same goes for Milligan & Bond's London (or 'My Generation' as I suppose it's actually called).
 
 
sleazenation
17:21 / 15.12.02
LLBIMG

Actually i'd disagree with your assumption that mainly traditional comic readers have read palestine, but that is neither here nor there.

The great strength of Palestine as journalism (and there are many flaws with sacco's work as journalism, but few are to do with his choice of media ) is that it brings Joe Sacco's particular take on middle east politics to a different form - comics, a form well adapted to conveying complex ideas. The great problems journalists face, especially when faced with the problem of exploring a long-standing conflict, is to make their audience look at the underlying complaints and symptoms of that conflict through new eyes and simply changing the form that story is conveyed in accoumplishes that task admirably.

Aside from that, I find your line of argument a somewhat reductionist and a self fulfilling prophesy - comics have a relatively small readership so they should not be used to reach a wider audience. Unless comic creators seize the initiative to use comics in more than a simple medium for fiction the never will be a larger audience who read non-fiction comics. It seems very much that you have a preconcieved notion of what comics are good for.
 
 
some guy
17:52 / 15.12.02
The great strength of Palestine as journalism (and there are many flaws with sacco's work as journalism, but few are to do with his choice of media ) is that it brings Joe Sacco's particular take on middle east politics to a different form - comics, a form well adapted to conveying complex ideas.

You're missing the point. I actually quite enjoy reading Joe Sacco and Ted Rall etc. but the issue isn't whether they are good comics, but rather whether comics is the best medium for journalism. And as journalism carries with it an implicit value judgment on audience size and exposure - from this perspective "reporting" comics defeat the point. Where is the audience?

Asside from that, I find your line of argument a somewhat reductionist and a self fulfilling prophesy - comics have a relatively small readership so they should not be used to reach a wider audience.

I'm talking specifically about journalism here, especially as there's a date issue involved. This isn't a question of diversity or complexity. And again, you are ignoring the journalism issue in favor of the "defense of comics" approach. This isn't an assault on the medium.
 
 
sleazenation
18:42 / 15.12.02
You're missing the point. I actually quite enjoy reading Joe Sacco and Ted Rall etc. but the issue isn't whether they are good comics, but rather whether comics is the best medium for journalism. And as journalism carries with it an implicit value judgment on audience size and exposure - from this perspective "reporting" comics defeat the point. Where is the audience?

Read what I posted again - I don't say that palestine is good comics - I say that it achieves something many other traditional forms of journalism have failed to- namely exploring the problems in the middle east in an accessible manner. So yes, in this instance comics appears to be a medium ideally suited to tell the story.

And i would also state that the aim of journalism is not 'to reach as many people as possible' but to offer a clear and concise report of events as the journalist sees them. The Columbia Journalism review clearly does not have as many readers as Newsweek or USA Today - does this means it is any less valid as a medium through which journalism can flourish?

Your argument seems to point towards an invalidation or closing down of alternative viewpoints, An especially repugnant idea since journalism is an inherently political act.


I'm talking specifically about journalism here, especially as there's a date issue involved. This isn't a question of diversity or complexity. And again, you are ignoring the journalism issue in favor of the "defense of comics" approach. This isn't an assault on the medium.

Sacco is not attempting a journalism that beats the opposition to the front page. He is attempting to explore with greater depth the conflicts and effect those conflicts have beyond the headlines in much the same way other documentary journalists do.

For what its worth the The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language would seem to support my assertion, despite its emphasis on newspapers and magazines and in radio and television broadcasts (something that would exclude documentary journalism that is intended for cinema such as Kandahar or Bowling for Columbine as well as Palestine). The key ingredient appears to be The style of writing characteristic of material in newspapers and magazines, consisting of direct presentation of facts or occurrences with little attempt at analysis or interpretation. the full entry is reproduced below.



jour·nal·ism    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (jûrn-lzm)
n.

1. The collecting, writing, editing, and presenting of news or news articles in newspapers and magazines and in radio and television broadcasts.
2. Material written for publication in a newspaper or magazine or for broadcast.
3. The style of writing characteristic of material in newspapers and magazines, consisting of direct presentation of facts or occurrences with little attempt at analysis or interpretation.
4. Newspapers and magazines.
5. An academic course training students in journalism.
6. Written material of current interest or wide popular appeal.
 
 
some guy
22:51 / 15.12.02
Yep, I get it. But in comics form, it's a Wasted Effort.
 
 
Jack Fear
00:22 / 16.12.02
That's for the creator to decide, Shirley...
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
00:36 / 16.12.02
There are an incredible number of books and publications which cover and analyze world events and such in a very serious and valuable way that sell just as much or less as Palestine, and they are published every year. The notion that those are not valuable because they are not reaching a huge number of people is ridiculous. Comics may not be the best way to get the word out to the masses, but books don't seem to be either. Should we stop printing books as well, Lawrence? Should pamphlets and industry journals be ditched as well?

If you scan the news magazines,papers, and television shows, the kind of reporting in Palestine and Safe Area Gorazde isn't very common. As the newsmedia becomes more and more controlled by corporate interests, comics may be a viable alternate for *some kinds* of reporting, if just for the fact that the publishers willing to put out that sort of thing are very unlikely to censor them. It'll never reach a huge number of people, but it will reach some people and it will be an option. Joe Sacco's work is a start, and there's a lot of potential.
 
 
some guy
01:06 / 16.12.02
Jack - the creator has nowt to do with it.

Flux - the examples of industry journals etc. are irrelevant unless we accept that Sacco did not intend for his journalism to impact the mainstream. But the comic is targeting the mainstream, as should be obvious by simply reading it, and as such it is presented via an inferior means for the ends, because the mainstream does not read comics.

Now, I am firmly in the "comics can do anything" camp, so this isn't an attack on the medium. This is not an argument that there shouldn't be complexity or breadth of genres/applications of the medium, or even an argument that specific instances of journalism in comics are good or bad. I'm merely saying that journalism - particularly topical coverage - includes an inherent responsibility for obtaining the widest coverage possible, and that by turning to comics Sacco is sacrificing this.

I could argue that Sacco perhaps knows that comics readers are so self-loathing that even a lousy journalistic effort in comics will win awards as we rush to assuage our spandex-crushed egos, but I won't. Just like I won't mull over the undue amount of attention lavished over the Meg Ryan movie that is Three Days In Europe just because it's presented in comic form.

Your mileage may vary, and that's fine.
 
 
sleazenation
19:09 / 16.12.02
Yep, I get it. But in comics form, it's a Wasted Effort.

Well clearly you don't get it otherwise you wouldn't continue with your inaccurately narrow definition of journalism as limited to reductive reportage.

I'm merely saying that journalism - particularly topical coverage - includes an inherent responsibility for obtaining the widest coverage possible, and that by turning to comics Sacco is sacrificing this.

And in doing so you are continuing to fail to grasp the crucial notions that A) the point of journalism is not to reach the widest possible audience (remember audience size appears no where in the the dictionary definition of journalism) and B) that Sacco's Palestine is supposed to be a form of daily news reportage.

You comparison between Palestine and Three Days in Europe is fatuous at best, and points towards what would seem to be your real objection to Palestine as documentary journalism - you don't like it. Whether or not that is down to your individual taste or your own inaccurate assumption as to what exactly constitutes journalism and its aims I leave to you.
 
 
Jack Fear
19:20 / 16.12.02
Laurence: Shouldn't any artistic endeavor aim for the widest audience possible? I find your attempt to characterize that as unique to journalism unconvincing; in fact, it seems an attempt to move the goalposts...
 
 
some guy
23:50 / 16.12.02
And in doing so you are continuing to fail to grasp the crucial notions ... that Sacco's Palestine is supposed to be a form of daily news reportage.

I'm assuming you meant to slip another negative in there so that it makes some sort of sense relative to the conversation, but you're being silly anyway. Nowhere did I say that Palestine has anything to do with daily news reporting.

You comparison between Palestine and Three Days in Europe is fatuous at best, and points towards what would seem to be your real objection to Palestine as documentary journalism - you don't like it.

Of course, if you actually read my posts you'd see I never said I didn't enjoy the book. I'm just dubious that it's in the most effective medium for what it is. And despite your nonsensical assertions, I do believe that audience is inextricably linked to journalism. If it isn't, what the hell is reporting for? I think I said this upthread, but I like the Sacco/Rall books. I just think it's a pity that only a handful of people are every going to read them because they have pictures.

Shouldn't any artistic endeavor aim for the widest audience possible?

Not necessarily. Flex Mentallo targets a very narrow, specific audience, for example.

I find your attempt to characterize that as unique to journalism unconvincing

Hence "your mileage may vary." But if your prime concern was topical journalism, would you deliberately choose a medium than effectively hid your reporting from as many people as possible?

And again, for those people whose brains seem to switch off contemplating this - I am not saying that comics as a medium can't do journalism. I am merely saying that the comics medium in it current state does not serve journalism. I don't know why this is controversial. It's not a slam on comics - if anything it's a slam on the millions of people who still think comics are for kids.
 
 
dlotemp
01:42 / 17.12.02
scene - dlotemp, moderate Barebelither, drags out an effigy with vague human appearance. Picks up a can of gasoline and douses the effigy.

close up of effigy reveals that it is made from pages of the graphic story cum journalist comic PALESTINE.

dlotemp lights a match and drops on effigy. Pent up frustrations on the Barebelith board regarding journalism in comics burn in the wintery night sky.

*****

Okay, now that's out of the way, let me throw my $0.02 in because I think I started this mess by referencing Palestine in the first place.

First, I've met Joe Sacco and talked to him about the work. Joe had no illusions about the audience size and that surely wasn't the point. Rather, Joe loves comics and he realized that there was an opportunity to scratch the surface of what comics can do as a medium. He didn't do it to earn awards. He knew he'd reach a very small audience, and that wasn't the point either. He just took a chance at trying to expand the medium and to complete something that creatively challenged him.

Second, Laurence Llewelyn-Bowen is my god does have a point. It would be like trying to write a piece of journalism using heiroglyphics. Sure, it looks cool but who's going to understand it in time to assimilate it? Still, Joe has a couple of bonuses on his side, those being he works in english, a popular language, and he draws pretty well, another form of communication. Also, the work is prescient - it still is relevant - and acts as an excellent record of the time.

I must agree that comics is hardly the appropriate medium to use if you need to quickly reach a mass audience. The logistics work against you. You can video tape a scene and show it faster on television than you could draw it. A smart comic creator must accept that function follows form in this case. You can't produce a fast, ephermal piece of comic art and hit a mass audience. Instead, comics are best served telling a in-depth piece of journalism that accomodates the length of production time. This also requires the creator to choose a topic that will have extended relevance or historical value.

I don't think that comics are devalued as a viable medium for journalism. Rather you have to do more than is expected. that's pretty challenging.
 
  

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