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Underground > Comic Books >

Another Invisibles Question: Does Gideon Stargrave Exist?

Our Lady of The Two Towers

14:34 / 08.12.02

The one thing that seems unclear from the 'Entropy in the UK' story is how 'real' the adventures of Gideon Stargrave is. Sir Miles thinks it's just a story King Mob is telling himself to avoid being mindprobed, but at the end the adventures seem to be going on and Stargrave (which I keep wanting to type as Stragrave for some reason) has an idea he was being tortured. Somewhere else it's also implied that Jacqui is Gwendolyne Stargrave just as King Mob is Gideon, and there's the girl in the desert (in 1.5 and 3.2) who lookes like Gwen in her schoolgirl uniform).

Alternative universes aren't really explored in The Invisibles, so what does it mean? Is that final scene 'just a bit of fun' a la the scene with Buffy in the asylum in series 6 of 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' (ie; It's just a joke, it doesn't mean anything in the overall context of the show) or does it have a deeper meaning? I always wondered if 'Gideon Stargrave' is an antibody for each universe in their own little battles with their own little Outer Churches.

15:53 / 08.12.02

It's another example of the cover identity, the idealised representation of the self, the fictionsuit, whatever you want to call it. In the first issue, King Mob says that when he was young he always wanted to be a spy from a Sixties TV show: he wrote himself the indentity and it later came to pass (see the current Hypersigil thread in the Magick forum). I also seem to remember Stargrave being a Grant Morrison character from way back (can anyone help me out here?), which I guess is further to the Invisibles being the author's personal ego modification (amongst other things).

at the scarwash

17:56 / 08.12.02

Yeah, I seem to remember Grant saying somewhere that Gideon Stargrave was his early attempt to do Jerry Cornelius. I don't think it was published. There's probably something on The Bomb about it.

Our Lady of The Two Towers

19:01 / 08.12.02

I know Morrison wrote Gideon Stargrave as a rip off of Jerry Cornelius, I'm trying to place it in the continuity of The Invisibles. King Mob seems to be the only character with a multi-universe presence and 'fictionsuit' doesn't make sense as an answer, because his fictionsuit is, in many ways, himself, and when he dies, he comes back again. If it wasn't for that last shot of Gideon hanging from the electricity pylon and saying he thought he was being interogated somewhere I'd be happy to chalk it up to King Mob's overactive imagination.

yawn - thing's buddy

19:37 / 08.12.02

from the ab:

In the end, what does Gideon Stargrave actually mean in the context of 'The Invisibles'?

the author realising what he's been doing all his life.

which is:

telling the same story over and over again.

I reckon GM didn't realise immediately that KM was actually GS until the Invisibles was underway.

Homage to oneself is the luxury of those who know themelves inside out.

and that was meant to sound profound.

oh yeah, it's a nod to pan-dimensional continuity as well innit.

23:11 / 08.12.02

Yawn has the idea. Also note that KM acted out this Gideon persona when he was going out with Jacqui (see Counting to None) so one aspect of Gideon Stargrave is that he's KM's earliest fiction suit. But insofar as the Entropy stories are concerned, they are just cover stories that mix and match different aspects of Jerry Cornelius and Gideon Stargrave.

23:14 / 08.12.02

What does 'from the ab' mean, ya Arab stoner?

I'm confuuused.

23:15 / 08.12.02

One more thing...

Gideon Stargrave is also KM's favored persona when he confronts the Supercontext as seen in And we are all Policmen, in COUNTING TO NONE. So Gideon Stargrave exists as a concept, a fiction suit, MeMeplex, or, as we called them back in the present day, a personality.

Do Stargrave's adventures fit into the Archon battle? No?

They are just fantasies.

23:15 / 08.12.02

Duhhh. The abstract, which I've just been debating elsewhere.

Sorry. Please continue.

23:16 / 08.12.02

Is Stargrave not to King Mob as KM is to Grant Morrison? Self-in-excelsis, or some phrase-alike?

Dan Fish - @Fish1k

12:53 / 09.12.02

There were Gideon Stargrave stories published, in Near Myths magazine IIRC, written&illustrated by GM. There was also a prose story in Disco 2000, which had a tie-in CD. This was kind of a companion piece to the Winters Edge story, featuring King Mob entering the supercontext.

I have a feeling there was also a page in one of the 'live aid' charity books in the 80's, though I could be misremembering.

GM's biblio, TIMEMACHINEGO should have these listed.

Dan
Comics 4 sale @
www.fish1000.freeserve.co.uk

Dan Fish - @Fish1k

12:55 / 09.12.02

Just realised, I've totally misunderstood your question - Ignore my previous post if you wish.

Dan Fish - @Fish1k

13:09 / 09.12.02

Sorry, me again.

It should also be remembered that the Invisibles exists as a comic, therefore it is all 'real' and none of it really happened - except in the paperverse.

The internal consistency of the story, is that the characters exist in a reality that can be changed by external forces. Continuity can be re-written (Like Ragged Robin did in her fiction-tank).

Therefore, King Mob was AND wasn't Gideon, just like Superman fought Nazis during the war, and arrived on earth in the 80's.

Just my humble opinion of course.

Dan

15:45 / 09.12.02

Of course Gideon is for real. Everything is true nothing is permitted.